Kyle Edmund

Oakland2002 · All-time great

Kyle Edmund

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

Judging by the appearance of Kyle's new house in the Bahamas, I would say he has made a wise decision wink

indiana · Tennis legend

Oakland2002 wrote:
Tennisnut thank for the clarity.

Fabulous to hear Kyles move is all about pragmatism and being the best tennis player he can be. I continue to be enthused by the fact he is taking sensible advice on all fronts and looking to do everything in a slightly better way, including his finances.

Heres to a successful 2018!

I'll pass on questioning some of the words there.

Onwards ...

JonH · All-time great

Baha Mar is the new kid on the block rival to Atlantis Hotel , the sister of the Atlantis the Palm Hotel in Dubai. Having spent quite a few weeks working at the Atlantis the Palm in Dubai ( they were a client of mine) then I can say they are as false and tacky (and yes luxurious) as they look in the photo.

Nice if you like that sort of thing, but would probably spend that sort of money elsewhere (if I had it - fortunately work paid for my stays at the Atlantis)

Tennis Nut · Social player

Yes JonH, its pretty tacky and false but it has a good Japanese restaurant. Looks flash but Kyle and his team aren't staying there. It's expensive.

Spectator · All-time great

Thanks, Tennis Nut, for the additional information. I didn't know about the opening of the new academy, and that is clearly an important thing. It's a lesson to me on the perils of going on a single news reference and commenting without full information. That's never a good thing, and I shouldn't have done it. And rereading my posts, they're more dogmatic than they should be, and don't acknowledge that for tennis players who switch residency, even if it were to be solely for tax purposes, it's not a question of avoiding all taxes thereby. So apologies to Mr Edmund and all around him on all those fronts.

The way tennis is taxed, of which I am aware, seems more than slightly problematic overall. The rules governing taxation of non-tournament income don't seem particularly fair or just. The point about the brevity of a tennis player's income is well taken (and one made earlier in the discussion). And it's a really interesting point about the question of risk and the differing ways in which it is factored into the equation. But I'm still troubled by the use of low-tax jurisdictions - not with reference to any particular player, but more generally. I suppose it's the sense that we live in a world where the social compact is fraying, and anything which gives the appearance that there are different and more advantageous rules for some and which reduces, in a way that bypasses the agreed policies of our country, the contributions to the services we all use and to which we all contribute ... well, concerns me. It's not right to put that burden, which is a wider one, on the shoulders of any particular person. But I do think it is an issue.

On the technical front, I could be wrong on this, and would be not only open to but appreciative of correction, but I think that even with the way tennis taxation operates - and fully acknowledging that tennis players do pay taxes on tournament income at a fairly high withholding rate* - the differences occasioned by changing residency remain not insignificant. Also on a technical note, for those who cite Florida as an example of a low-tax jurisdiction, Florida may have no state taxes, but top 20 players living there would still, according to a quick check of the US tax rates, be subject to 39.6% national basic rates. I'm sure that they don't actually pay that, given expenses and tax planning, but it is not a low-tax jurisdiction. And Spain's basic rate appears to be (BiS can no doubt correct me!) 45% for incomes over 60,000 Euros. Again, that's probably not what people pay, but ....

*The people I really feel for, by the way, if I've understood things correctly, are those players who are taxed at source when they are making next to nothing anyway. The system has always seemed rather deeply unfair to them.

Anyway, it's good to hear about the new base in terms of tennis: sounds a good set-up, and I hope the preparations for the next year go well.

-- Edited by Spectator on Tuesday 12th of December 2017 12:39:46 AM

JonH · All-time great

Out of interest, Re tax, would a top tennis player set him or herself up as a limited company in some way, given they employ people, and in fact it endorsement and prizemoney would get paid to Andy Murray or kyle Edmund Limited? Costs would then be disbursed and dividends paid to the player by the company, reducing the tax burden to include corporation tax, which of course would be lower in some parts of the world? Not sure exactly how they work it but some sort of corporate approach would make sense?

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

Spectator wrote:

And Spain's basic rate appears to be (BiS can no doubt correct me!) 45% for incomes over 60,000 Euros. Again, that's probably not what people pay, but ....

-- Edited by Spectator on Tuesday 12th of December 2017 12:39:46 AM

Hi Spectator

If I ever earn over 60.000 euros in one year, I will let you know. But don't hold your breath on that one.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Thanks, too, Tennisnut for a very informative post.

I knew about the tennis academy because there had been tweets of them all working out there, and - like Spec - I think that the tax withheld at source is far more of an issue for the low level players who barely get chump change anyway, and would not be liable to tax in the first place, most of them, after deducting expenses. Again, a lot of low-ranked players' tweets seem very bitter about it.

But I do not think this, which is known, really changes the fundamental issue. And this is not at all personal to Kyle. But it's only my view.

NB Why do you think "Bedene was also mentioned in this discussion but what you need to know is he will be taxed as a foreign player probably which is very attractive."
If Bedene now is a British national and fiscally resident in the UK, why or how would/could he be taxed as a foreign player?

Ratty · County player

Coup Droit wrote:
NB Why do you think "Bedene was also mentioned in this discussion but what you need to know is he will be taxed as a foreign player probably which is very attractive."
If Bedene now is a British national and fiscally resident in the UK, why or how would/could he be taxed as a foreign player?

It's possible that Aljaz is asserting that he retains Slovenian domicile, in which case he can elect to be taxed on his non-UK income only to the extent that it is remitted to the UK. If he has been tax-resident here since 2008, electing would cost him £60,000 pa. On total earnings of $640,000 in 2017, the decision is fairly marginal, and would depend on how much income he needs in the UK.

If he intends to live in England permanently, he will have become domiciled in England & Wales, would not be able to elect for the remittance basis, and so - like most UK residents - would be taxed on his worldwide income.

I could go on ...

and on ...

but I won't. smile

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Tx, Ratty.
I understand the basics of the nondom rules but just don't quite get then why tennisnut would say that would be 'very attractive' to Bedene when, as you say, it would seem to be fairly marginal.
Doesn't really matter, I guess, but it seems to rather malign Bedene.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

As quoted by Stircrazy in the JoKo thread and relevant here for comparison purposes for those who don't maybe follow women's tennis:

"Today, however, I couldn't help noticing an article in today's Times under the heading "Konta: I will not move to avoid paying taxies like Edmund". Jo, bless her, is quoted as saying that:

"for me personally, Im against it. Its not something that would work for me. This is my home and I know if you move your residency outside of here, you can only spend a certain amount of time in the country. I dont want to be restricted with how much time I get to spend at home. Im not going to put myself in that position, so Ill happily pay my taxes and spend my time at home."

skibbarriz · Strong Club Player

Jo shouldn't spend so much time reading the forum.

indiana · Tennis legend

As I indicated in Jo's thread, for many family life and restrictions on the time in the UK will be very important factors before you even get into arguable morals.

Even with a very good overseas training base you clearly don't have to change your tax residence and accept these restrictions. But players will weigh all the factors differently and have different values and say some other consideration as to where that base is located.

JonH · All-time great

Looks like Kyle is planning to play on the clay down in South America this season, entered into Buenos Aires early Feb, perhaps he will go onto the other events as well? I think it is a good move, will toughen up his game and self a lot playing down there and set him up well for the clay season when it comes around in Europe.

www.menstennisforums.com/6270-argentina-open/935178-buenos-aires-entry-list-fact-sheet.html