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Post Info TOPIC: 2023 Rankings


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RE: 2023 Rankings


Var wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
DavidC wrote:

Mika is one of 10 2008 born in the top 100, but Hannah is on her own as a 2009 (Ksenia Efremova at 149 being the nearest)


 Yes, but as Indy and others often point out, there's only 3 months difference between Hannah and Mika.

So if we took out the arbitrary 31st Dec. date and used another equally valid one, i.e. 30th June, we'd have a different look and Hannah and Mika would be in the same year (as would Ksenia). And also Emerson Jones (just).

But not Guilia Popa, for instance who is a late 2009.

Or Laura Samsonova, or Wakana Sonobe, say, who are both early 2008-ers

 


 Goodness, these girls are still so young. Such a long journey ahead of them. I don't think a few months will make a difference in five years. It will be interesting to see who transitions to seniors the best and manages to stay fit and healthy.


 Yes, absolutely, a few months makes no difference in the big picture. 

But, from the work I used to do in France, there used to be a big problem with the majority of the elite girls being born in the first half of the calendar year.

And it was obvious why - because all the year were put together, for training evaluation and competitions, and because 10 months made a big difference for the 8 and 9 and 10 year olds say, all the younger girls would get discouraged, and would drop out.  

So only the Jan-June kids carried on. So the elite were only from that group. 

As part of a group pushing for a different approach, we tried a couple of variations (rolling years, June-June years etc) and it was a pretty big success - the balance became far better, far more late-year players carried on and the elite groups were more representative. 



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Var


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Coup Droit wrote:
Var wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
DavidC wrote:

Mika is one of 10 2008 born in the top 100, but Hannah is on her own as a 2009 (Ksenia Efremova at 149 being the nearest)


 Yes, but as Indy and others often point out, there's only 3 months difference between Hannah and Mika.

So if we took out the arbitrary 31st Dec. date and used another equally valid one, i.e. 30th June, we'd have a different look and Hannah and Mika would be in the same year (as would Ksenia). And also Emerson Jones (just).

But not Guilia Popa, for instance who is a late 2009.

Or Laura Samsonova, or Wakana Sonobe, say, who are both early 2008-ers

 


 Goodness, these girls are still so young. Such a long journey ahead of them. I don't think a few months will make a difference in five years. It will be interesting to see who transitions to seniors the best and manages to stay fit and healthy.


 Yes, absolutely, a few months makes no difference in the big picture. 

But, from the work I used to do in France, there used to be a big problem with the majority of the elite girls being born in the first half of the calendar year.

And it was obvious why - because all the year were put together, for training evaluation and competitions, and because 10 months made a big difference for the 8 and 9 and 10 year olds say, all the younger girls would get discouraged, and would drop out.  

So only the Jan-June kids carried on. So the elite were only from that group. 

As part of a group pushing for a different approach, we tried a couple of variations (rolling years, June-June years etc) and it was a pretty big success - the balance became far better, far more late-year players carried on and the elite groups were more representative. 


Thats so interesting CD. 



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VRoberts


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Yes, very interesting.

I don't know about over recent years but there was a period quite a few years ago where there was a very clear weighting of the ultimately more successful GB juniors being born earlier in the year.



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does this flow through into pros? ie if we looked at the top 100 world pros or top 20 Brits, would there be a first half of the year bias? ANd does it make any difference for men/women/boys/girls?

Not asking anyone to go off and research it, just if anyone knows at all?

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JonH comes home wrote:

does this flow through into pros? ie if we looked at the top 100 world pros or top 20 Brits, would there be a first half of the year bias? ANd does it make any difference for men/women/boys/girls?

Not asking anyone to go off and research it, just if anyone knows at all?


 Re the above, it was definitely flowing into lower pros in France, in that once the elite is defined as a group those are the ones who tend to become pros as those are the ones with all the state aid (and, after all, if the other have quit, they're not becoming pros

However, again only from my experience, it was primarily a problem for the girls and far less marked in the boys. 

Now, I don't like sweeping generalisations, they can be dangerous, but I also think it's daft and naive to ignore general characteristics totally and what we found was that, in terms of being born late in the year both boys and girls were less strong, less technical, less training etc.

BUT, basically, the boys would play their matches, lose, have a breakdown with smashing rackets and crying, and then five minutes later would all be playing pingpong in the clubhouse. It didn't really affect them. Whereas the girls took their losses to heart, would brood, and take it personally - and would drop out far more quickly than the boys. So the girls was far more skewed to the first half of the year. The federation even introduced 'girls' training styles and 'boys' training styles as it was shown that boys loved playing individual points, and matches, whereas the girls far prefered team exercises.  



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Coup Droit wrote:
JonH comes home wrote:

does this flow through into pros? ie if we looked at the top 100 world pros or top 20 Brits, would there be a first half of the year bias? ANd does it make any difference for men/women/boys/girls?

Not asking anyone to go off and research it, just if anyone knows at all?


 Re the above, it was definitely flowing into lower pros in France, in that once the elite is defined as a group those are the ones who tend to become pros as those are the ones with all the state aid (and, after all, if the other have quit, they're not becoming pros

However, again only from my experience, it was primarily a problem for the girls and far less marked in the boys. 

Now, I don't like sweeping generalisations, they can be dangerous, but I also think it's daft and naive to ignore general characteristics totally and what we found was that, in terms of being born late in the year both boys and girls were less strong, less technical, less training etc.

BUT, basically, the boys would play their matches, lose, have a breakdown with smashing rackets and crying, and then five minutes later would all be playing pingpong in the clubhouse. It didn't really affect them. Whereas the girls took their losses to heart, would brood, and take it personally - and would drop out far more quickly than the boys. So the girls was far more skewed to the first half of the year. The federation even introduced 'girls' training styles and 'boys' training styles as it was shown that boys loved playing individual points, and matches, whereas the girls far prefered team exercises.  


 fascinating CD, good insight. And you see that behaviour in the pros when for example women and men shake hands at the end, completely different attitudes , men much warmer and congratulation given, women often quite cold and offhand. So I can see how that starts in juniors and how it flows through to what you say happens in terms of dropouts 



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indiana wrote:

Yes, very interesting.

I don't know about over recent years but there was a period quite a few years ago where there was a very clear weighting of the ultimately more successful GB juniors being born earlier in the year.


 Yes I have noticed consistently when I have checked birthdates of top GB juniors that they seem to be slightly skewed towards the early part of the year (it may well be that it is more skewed with girls than boys - that hadn't occurred to me until reading CD's experience/insight, but I can certainly think of more one-time junior boys than girls with later birth months)   It is a well known phenomenon in many sports which Malcolm Gladwell and others have written about, and I see there is a Wikipedia page on the subject



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18 Sept 2023:

Top 100 and main upward movers

Boys:

6 (=) Henry Searle ('06)
46 (=) Oliver Bonding ('07)
65 (-1) Charlie Robertson ('06)
92 (=) Luca Pow
94 (=) Viktor Frydrych ('06)

842 (+129) Mark Ceban ('09)

1268 (+88) Josh Hinton ('07)

2805 (+408) Michael Smirnov



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18 Sept 2023

Top 100 and main upward movers

Girls:

14 (=) Hannah Klugman ('09)
16 (=) Mimi Xu ('07)
30 (=) Ranah Stoiber
43 (+1) Ella MacDonald
64 (-1) Isabelle Lacy ('06)
94 (=) Mika Stojsavljevic ('08)
95 (=) Hep Oluwadare ('07)

297 (+49) Allegra Korpanec Davies ('07)
332 (+17) Brooke Black ('07)

674 (+109) Sophie Bekker ('08)

2797 (+1057) Siana MacDonald ('06)

3043 - NEW IN - Akosua Larbi-Mensah ('09)



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Just to point out:

Looking back at the 2022 rankings thread, last year we basically had 2-5 girls in the top-100 and 1-3 boys

Now, with 7 girls and 5 boys, it's a far different picture

(not saying that junior rankings has huge meaning going forward but in and of itself, it's got to be good)

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What I think is good is that out of the 12 players we have in the top 100 for both boys and girls is the fact that only 3 are in there last year meaning we will have 9 next year which shows that there is a lot of potential in our younger players

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It is obvious that we have a much bigger number of juniors playing ITF juniors than in the past and we need a big pyramid to move into the senior game. The bigger the base, the more likely to find a gem.
The talent coming through is good and there is depth in talent. Not just the odd one in each age group

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paulisi wrote:

It is obvious that we have a much bigger number of juniors playing ITF juniors than in the past and we need a big pyramid to move into the senior game. The bigger the base, the more likely to find a gem.
The talent coming through is good and there is depth in talent. Not just the odd one in each age group


 Also I imagine it's easier to coach players that can have healthy competition with their peers: in terms of people to practise against; to have a certain amount of rivalry with; and, to support each other when travelling to the same tournaments. Hannah and Mimi are best friends for instance; and Hannah and Isabelle seemed to get on really well at Wimbledon, playing doubles and supporting each other in qualies. Harder for Emma, for example, who has always seemed a bit more isolated (I may be wrong here as obviously I don't know her personally!). 



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paulisi wrote:

It is obvious that we have a much bigger number of juniors playing ITF juniors than in the past and we need a big pyramid to move into the senior game. The bigger the base, the more likely to find a gem.
The talent coming through is good and there is depth in talent. Not just the odd one in each age group


 Yes, the bigger number is obviously mainly due to the way bigger number of domestic events the LTA now hosts 

It doesn't make our players any better, as such, but it does at least give a neutral grading number, which eliminates some of the elite bias, and provides a springboard for those trying their luck elsewhere - and is also especially important in a country that, unlike USA, France, etc, does not have a strong domestic event system



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25 Sept 2023

Top 100 and main upward movers

Girls:

14 (=) Hannah Klugman ('09)
16 (=) Mimi Xu ('07)
30 (=) Ranah Stoiber
44 (-1) Ella MacDonald
60 (+4) Isabelle Lacy ('06)
92 (+2) Mika Stojsavljevic ('08)
94 (+1) Hep Oluwadare ('07)

184 (+10) Gabia Paskauskas ('06)

291 (+6) Allegra Korpanec Davies ('07)

2142 (+46) Sophia Fredericks-Mckee ('07)
2705 (+92) Siana MacDonald ('06)
2768 (+190) Victoria Marshall ('07)
2805 - NEW IN - Matilda Cabrera Burns ('09)
2898 (+145) Akosua Larbi-Mensah ('09)
3347 (+352) Maria Nicol ('08)


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