Marcus Willis

Mark1968 · Intermediate Club Player

Marcus Willis

indiana · Tennis legend

Mark1968 wrote:
The FACT that this and last weeks ITF events in England had overseas players in both finals sort of tells us all a lot does it not?

Does it ? What does it tell you ?

-- Edited by indiana on Saturday 5th of November 2016 02:54:56 PM

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

But how is this different from France, Mark?

The weather is not much different - even in the south, where it's better, it's all clay, so no one can play outside for 3-4 months of the year anyway, it's all inside.

And the youth love PC games just as much and is just as 'lazy'.

And, yes, the British public only care about tennis for two weeks but that's just stating the same problem - i.e. it's the fault of the system that they only care about tennis for 2 weeks, not the fact that we only care about tennis for two weeks that makes the system bound to fail.

I don't think more futures/challengers is really the answer. Or, at least, it's only part of the answer.

The LTA has to create a dynamic, competitive, singles tennis culture among clubs. They have to make it a sport. For all levels. Not just a leisure activity for most and a sport for a select few.

NB I prefer the lower prize money for the British Tour. I thought there were certain players who were over-playing them.
I think though that there should be at least 3 or 4 British Tour events each week. If not more. Geographically based. So that for most weeks of the year, someone in the North-east, say, can go and play an event, within travel distance of his/her home (some closer, some further). Every week. As fits with their schedule. They should form part of regional circuits. With play-offs at the end of the year. And the top ranks should feed to national championships, as they do now. It needs a defined structure that ties it to the place, so sponsors and local people care. And, preferably, team tennis too.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Mark1968 wrote:
The FACT that this and last weeks ITF events in England had overseas players in both finals sort of tells us all a lot does it not?

er, sorry?

This week's German 10k has foreign players in the final. As does this week's Amercian 10k.

Et alors????

Mark1968 · Intermediate Club Player

Coup Droit wrote:
But how is this different from France, Mark?

The weather is not much different - even in the south, where it's better, it's all clay, so no one can play outside for 3-4 months of the year anyway, it's all inside.

And the youth love PC games just as much and is just as 'lazy'.

And, yes, the British public only care about tennis for two weeks but that's just stating the same problem - i.e. it's the fault of the system that they only care about tennis for 2 weeks, not the fact that we only care about tennis for two weeks that makes the system bound to fail.

I don't think more futures/challengers is really the answer. Or, at least, it's only part of the answer.

The LTA has to create a dynamic, competitive, singles tennis culture among clubs. They have to make it a sport. For all levels. Not just a leisure activity for most and a sport for a select few.

NB I prefer the lower prize money for the British Tour. I thought there were certain players who were over-playing them.
I think though that there should be at least 3 or 4 British Tour events each week. If not more. Geographically based. So that for most weeks of the year, someone in the North-east, say, can go and play an event, within travel distance of his/her home (some closer, some further). Every week. As fits with their schedule. They should form part of regional circuits. With play-offs at the end of the year. And the top ranks should feed to national championships, as they do now. It needs a defined structure that ties it to the place, so sponsors and local people care. And, preferably, team tennis too.

Futures / Challengers are the answer because this is the only way outside of the main tour that you can win ranking points and earn money. Being the best player at your local club won't get you up the rankings.

Mark1968 · Intermediate Club Player

Coup Droit wrote:
Mark1968 wrote:
The FACT that this and last weeks ITF events in England had overseas players in both finals sort of tells us all a lot does it not?
er, sorry?
This week's German 10k has foreign players in the final. As does this week's Amercian 10k.
Et alors????

It would be unfair of me to comment on the state of German and American tennis as I don't follow it closely enough plus this is a British forum. You are just distracting from another poor week for our players.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

I don't think so.

I know the state of French tennis very well and very often the finalists are not French.

In the last one, it was a Belgian and an Italian, for instance.

It is not a sad reflection on the state of French tennis.

And more futures/challengers are not the answer if you don't have the level. The way to get the level is to have a dynamic club scene. Being the best club player will lead to the other. It's a question of having a sensible business model for the future. Not just patching over the problems of the moment.

Mark1968 · Intermediate Club Player

Coup Droit wrote:
I don't think so.

I know the state of French tennis very well and very often the finalists are not French.

In the last one, it was a Belgian and an Italian, for instance.

It is not a sad reflection on the state of French tennis.

And more futures/challengers are not the answer if you don't have the level. The way to get the level is to have a dynamic club scene. Being the best club player will lead to the other. It's a question of having a sensible business model for the future. Not just patching over the problems of the moment.

If only it were that simple CD. You forget we live in a country controlled by the PC brigade where everyone is considered equal. I know through my young family members that competition is largely discouraged amongst youngsters in schools ( where many first pick up a racket) and even at some sports clubs. When kids get trophies for turning up on time or for finishing 37th in the cross country we've got no chance. Apparently it's the taking part that counts not winning. Things need to change.

chavkev · Intermediate Club Player

Mark1968 wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
I don't think so.

I know the state of French tennis very well and very often the finalists are not French.

In the last one, it was a Belgian and an Italian, for instance.

It is not a sad reflection on the state of French tennis.

And more futures/challengers are not the answer if you don't have the level. The way to get the level is to have a dynamic club scene. Being the best club player will lead to the other. It's a question of having a sensible business model for the future. Not just patching over the problems of the moment.
If only it were that simple CD. You forget we live in a country controlled by the PC brigade where everyone is considered equal. I know through my young family members that competition is largely discouraged amongst youngsters in schools ( where many first pick up a racket) and even at some sports clubs. When kids get trophies for turning up on time or for finishing 37th in the cross country we've got no chance. Apparently it's the taking part that counts not winning. Things need to change.

I must confess that an element of that strikes a chord with me. I was quite a sickly child, so once I got well and was able to take part in sport, I was a very competitive and I must say annoying child. One year I won every event in the school sports day and the next year it was changed into some team-building event so that there were no winners or losers. I'm not sure what lesson they were trying to teach us as I repeatedly tripped over my bottom lip for the entire event.

-- Edited by chavkev on Saturday 5th of November 2016 04:05:54 PM

Mark1968 · Intermediate Club Player

chavkev wrote:
Mark1968 wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
I don't think so.

I know the state of French tennis very well and very often the finalists are not French.

In the last one, it was a Belgian and an Italian, for instance.

It is not a sad reflection on the state of French tennis.

And more futures/challengers are not the answer if you don't have the level. The way to get the level is to have a dynamic club scene. Being the best club player will lead to the other. It's a question of having a sensible business model for the future. Not just patching over the problems of the moment.
If only it were that simple CD. You forget we live in a country controlled by the PC brigade where everyone is considered equal. I know through my young family members that competition is largely discouraged amongst youngsters in schools ( where many first pick up a racket) and even at some sports clubs. When kids get trophies for turning up on time or for finishing 37th in the cross country we've got no chance. Apparently it's the taking part that counts not winning. Things need to change.
I must confess that an element of that strikes a chord with me. I was quite a sickly child, so once I got well and was able to take part in sport I was a very competitive and I must say annoying child. One year I won every event in the school sports day and the next year it was changed into some team-building event so that there were no winners or losers. I'm not sure what lesson they were trying to teach us as I repeatedly tripped over my bottom lip for the entire event.

Outstanding post Chavkev, put in far better words than I could muster, your experience is a perfect example of what I meant.

indiana · Tennis legend

We may not exactly agree on the underlying GB environment and not agree on possible solutions, but at least we seem agreed about a difficult environment in this country for tennis players to come through.

Maybe rather an anomaly then to relatively clobber these who do become some of our best players, but not seen to have overall 'made it'.

Personally I watch out for all our leading players ( and that encompasses world top 1000 and beyond plus many juniors ). I have my favourites ( I recall someone strangely being called out for not supporting players equally ), but recognise that all have achieved in tennis and I want to see them do well.

I do though worry about over concentration ( here I mean from our tennis authorities ) on producing / supporting supposed potential top 100 players with a danger of disillusioning lower ranked players, the level that many younger players could first imagine themselves attaining before possibly achieving better.

If there was much more tennis infrastructure in this country and more of a foreseeable long time career within tennis it would be so much better. Moving that way is a long term process, but no reason not to be trying.

-- Edited by indiana on Sunday 6th of November 2016 01:20:33 PM

The Optimist · ATP qualifying

There seem to be 2 different things under discussion here - how long the LTA should support players before they have a breakthrough moment; and whether players who look like that breakthrough is never coming are worthy of our support.

Regarding the 2nd point, that is what this forum is all about, debating and supporting British players at all levels. For myself, I love tennis and enjoy following the fortunes of those who hail from these shores, whether they are a current star, potential future star, or those who in my opinion are never really going to achieve lift-off. Every little success they have at whatever level fills me with joy even if I know for a lot of them it is a doomed enterprise in the long run. And to be honest, the more that try their hand or keep playing when most of us would have thrown in the towel, the better the health of tennis in this country. They all help pull up those that are just behind them.

Should they be funded? Well, I think the LTA has wasted a lot of money on its previous funding schemes. Mainly by picking a few and throwing the world at them. Is this the fault of the players? Not really, who would not take support from a national association that seemed to think you could achieve highly in your sport. Personally, I feel we should have more junior ITFs and adult futures. Gives people a chance to test the waters or show their skills. And as for funding, I think LTA staff should get out and about and watch matches (of all players, not just those already on the gravy train) and offer support, advice, training and competing opportunities not necessarily just funding but based on what they actually see. Support shouldn't be age linked (within reason) IMO but should be linked to speed of progress. A player who tries futures at 16 may take 2 or 3 years to really make headway. A player who starts at 18 should be going deep regularly within a year. Same for players leaving college. But just because a player turns out not to be good enough in the long run for financial support or a meaningful career doesn't mean they won't have my support and good wishes.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

"The French superstars are not the product of a Utopian club system, they are in the case of Tsonga and Monfils the sons of athletes migrating to France to play handball and football respectively and in the case of Gasquet the son of two tennis coaches; bar that happy accident he would have been enjoying life playing Rugby, probably to be fair at a decent level. It is not the product of indoor tennis factories, although that may help once you have identified the talent."

This is rather missing the point.

The question is why did the sons of athletes migrating to France to play handball and football choose to play tennis? And how come Gasquet (and SO SO many others) are the offspring of tennis coaches?

Britain has many top athletes migrating to Britain to play top level sport. Indeed, we have many top level sportsman who did not migrate to Britain. But their children (generally) do not play tennis.

The reason young Tsonga and Monfils chose tennis was because there was an excellent club system to get going as a kiddie (cheap, excellent lessons, local, available to all), with top county, regional and national input later on (no individual cash funding, just free group training, and then free individual training, and then free academies for full-time training).

And of course the kids of tennis coaches are far more likely to become top tennis players. The percentage in France is huge. Having a parent who can coach well is the cheapest, most cost effective way of producing new young potential tennis stars. It's what the french system is based on.

That's the whole point of my 'family connections' thread and my whole rant about the lack of a tennis industry in GB.

Because there simply aren't very many coaches in Britain (rightly so, we don't need many, there aren't enough people playing). More importantly, there aren't enough people playing to a decent level (LTA 6 or so) who can coach their kids properly even without a coaching certificate.

So it's no accident at all.

And that's why the LTA should not just target a few players. It's too linear, no spin-off benefits. But target competitive club tennis, with LTA in-put, and create a whole industry of tennis that will then feed on itself, with less and less LTA input needed.

So you need more people playing, more clubs, who need more coaches, who then have children, who then become tennis players.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

"The French superstars are not the product of a Utopian club system, they are in the case of Tsonga and Monfils the sons of athletes migrating to France to play handball and football respectively and in the case of Gasquet the son of two tennis coaches; bar that happy accident he would have been enjoying life playing Rugby, probably to be fair at a decent level. It is not the product of indoor tennis factories, although that may help once you have identified the talent."

This is rather missing the point.

The question is why did the sons of athletes migrating to France to play handball and football choose to play tennis? And how come Gasquet (and SO SO many others) are the offspring of tennis coaches?

Britain has many top athletes migrating to Britain to play top level sport. Indeed, we have many top level sportsman who did not migrate to Britain. But their children (generally) do not play tennis.

The reason young Tsonga and Monfils chose tennis was because there was an excellent club system to get going as a kiddie (cheap, excellent lessons, local, available to all), with top county, regional and national input later on (no individual cash funding, just free group training, and then free individual training, and then free academies for full-time training).

And of course the kids of tennis coaches are far more likely to become top tennis players. The percentage in France is huge. Having a parent who can coach well is the cheapest, most cost effective way of producing new young potential tennis stars. It's what the french system is based on.

That's the whole point of my 'family connections' thread and my whole rant about the lack of a tennis industry in GB.

Because there simply aren't very many coaches in Britain (rightly so, we don't need many, there aren't enough people playing). More importantly, there aren't enough people playing to a decent level (LTA 6 or so) who can coach their kids properly even without a coaching certificate.

So it's no accident at all.

And that's why the LTA should not just target a few players. It's too linear, no spin-off benefits. But target competitive club tennis, with LTA in-put, and create a whole industry of tennis that will then feed on itself, with less and less LTA input needed.

So you need more people playing, more clubs, who need more coaches, who then have children, who then become tennis players.

Oakland2002 · All-time great

Much though I love the general politeness of the forum I would hate to see Vandy stop posting I am a big fan of inclusion we need one or two really sick puppies to keep us on our toes.

The technical training available in the UK for those that can afford it is good enough to produce top 100 juniors year on year, tennis is a minority sport for which intense technical training is essential. The cost implications limit it to the middle class. Our main problem is the lack of athletically gifted children who get the opportunity to play tennis. The French superstars are not the product of a Utopian club system, they are in the case of Tsonga and Monfils the sons of athletes migrating to France to play handball and football respectively and in the case of Gasquet the son of two tennis coaches; bar that happy accident he would have been enjoying life playing Rugby, probably to be fair at a decent level. It is not the product of indoor tennis factories, although that may help once you have identified the talent.

The best athletes in the UK are in football academies by the time they are 10, unless they go to schools that actively suppress it or have a family enshrined in another sport. Like golf, tennis coaches expect to get paid, there is no culture of thousands of qualified amateur football coaches spending Sunday mornings coaching tens of thousands of children the basics of football.

We are very lucky in that we have Wimbledon an annual festival of tennis broadcast free to air, saturation coverage two weeks a year. Hockey would kill for that exposure and have just negotiated a deal with BT Sport in a desperate attempt to get some complete coverage of matches. Tennis needs to focus on optimising that festival creating a second facet that makes it child friendly and accessible, obviously it cannot all fit into the main event but road to Wimbledon should be for 8,9 and 10 year olds and run around qualifying as a focus for coaches in primary schools, starting from winter half terms with free coaching in the schools through Easter and spring half term. Hopefully coaches can then guidevkids into summer camps in clubs. More strategic educational alliances then need to be created that keep children's options open and facilitate intensive training ideally on site for children with the potential to become professionals.

The LTA should fund players full time who have a junior pedigree that gives them a realistic chance of being top 200 by the time they are 20, they should also support elite college players with a rank of under 300 who want to drop out early to join the main tour. Outside that if a player can self fund to fulfil their dream good luck to them. In particular good luck to Marcus who through his own talent has created opportunities to compete again this year, there is no question he is talented enough to make a living in the game, he is an absolute joy to watch and support every time I see Sandgrens name on the challenger tour it makes me smile, for Marcus it is about choices not talent and how he chooses to optimises it.

-- Edited by Oakland2002 on Sunday 6th of November 2016 08:46:42 AM