Marcus Willis

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

RE: Marcus Willis

Jan · Hall of fame

Maybe there should be a vote for "Best player never to have won PoM".........

emmsie69 · Top national player

Madadman wrote:
Understand Marcus' point re coaches the LTA assigned. Since I have been following the sport in more depth than just following the top level. There seems to be too many changes that no process is ever given a long enough time to see if it works.
However the ATP as well have made things a lot harder during that time. The ATP 250's qualifying draws that used to 32. This allowed players to 'give it a go' many players in the top 500 or so could get in to a few draws a year. The challenger circuit has been messed around a few times. They also use to have 32 qualifying draws and at one point dropping to 4 men draws. Reduced ATP points at ITF level, 10 points for an M15 win compared to 18 before that kerfuffle. There are not many M25s around or the Challenger 50's so there is a big gap between the M15's and when you get to Challenger 80 level. Considering you need to be at least top 500 if not top 400 to make a challenger qualifying draw a lot of times that's the equivalent of 10 M15 titles in ranking points. Arguably making it harder to rise the rankings means only the best reach the top which should be the case but does seem the ATP's attempt to reduce players chances of sneaking through have worked.

I'd be interested to see the potential growth of the UTR tournaments in coming years as they do appear to offer players a better chance of playing tennis/making money than the ATP circuit.

I think the elephant in the room is the points not dropping off. Theoretically the points on offer at the lower levels wouldn't be such an issue in usual times as it would be the same for everyone. The points required to get into the top 500 for men is 72, for women it's 85 and surprisingly the gap doesn't widen massively even with 50 points on offer at WTA as opposed to 20 for the men. Whats causing a problem is players still having points from 2 years ago. It makes it so much harder for a player to go up the rankings. I really think that any points a year old should be worth 50% now and a tappering off over the next few months.

ROSAMUND · Futures level

Years ago in the 1980's, (I think) full ranking points for the WTA only used to last for 6 months and then dropped to 50%.. There was also ranking points for beating players so if you beat the World No 1 it was recognised with ranking points.

-- Edited by ROSAMUND on Thursday 4th of March 2021 02:19:05 PM

indiana · Tennis legend

And now for a period the ATP are planning on allowing players to keep 50% of points earned more than 2 years ago!

ROSAMUND · Futures level

indiana wrote:
And now for a period the ATP are planning on allowing players to keep 50% of points earned more than 2 years ago!

I think snooker has ranking points over 2 years but it's a completely different sport.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

ROSAMUND wrote:
indiana wrote:
And now for a period the ATP are planning on allowing players to keep 50% of points earned more than 2 years ago!
I think snooker has ranking points over 2 years but it's a completely different sport.

Darts also had or has 2 year rankings - mind you they have, like snooker, all sorts of orders of merit linked to different tournament qualifications.

Yes - ATP used to also have a "quality" aspect ie additional ranking points for beating #1, 2-5, 6-10, 11-20, 21-50, 51-100 etc etc which worked quite well at the time when players abilities where clearly different in those bands - they got rid of it as players abilities became much more uniform across the piece, if I recall ie beating WR 80 was really not much different than WR 30, say...

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

From Matt Smith (tennis coach)

Matt Smith
@smithy_red
·
2h
It was a real privilege to be a small part of this man's journey.

A stand up guy in every way, I'm looking forward to working together again in a different arena.

Unfortunately another in a long list of severely mismanaged talent in Britain.

Oakland2002 · All-time great

Marcus is obviously a very likeable guy and not without talent for tennis and other things I can see him being a great success in the world of tennis more broadly, the highlight of his playing career for me has to be his challenger refuelling.

If hed been a footballer he would have had a great career and plenty of fun somewhere between step 3 and 5 of non league where and this is not meant in a nasty way at all there are plenty of guys like Marcus who have a great time playing football despite carrying a few pounds at a good to very good level for a few quid. A decision would have been made very early on for him in his football career, pro clubs would have had a look at him, perhaps he would have even been in an academy for sometime and then something would have happened, ie turned up at the Australian Junior open without his rackets etc... and interest waned. For those that mature and get stuck in there is a way back in but even the most talented players have to grind relentlessly to get there.

I think if you are losing the Kyles of British Tennis as juniors that is when you really worry that the system is really broken. Obviously everything wasnt perfect for Kyle either but fundamentally the guy really wanted it. Similarly Jo Salisbury really wanted a doubles career proactively explored every avenue. A holistic approach is all well and good but coping with the rough edges of any process (resilience) is a fundamental for success.

Flexibility is also really important and Cams journey highlights another way that can be facilitated with the right type of player, big difference between the two in that Cam and his family were able to pull something together that kept him happy and motivated to which Cam was totally committed.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Yes, but you've mentioned Cam, Joe and Kyle rather as though they show that the GB system is a success because you CAN make it, as long as everything comes together in the way it did for Cam, Joe and Kyle.

But the point that Matt and others were making about Marcus is that the federation should facilitate it working, even for people where not everything falls into place, or doesn't at that particular time.

Indeed, the fact that two of those successes were via US college, with one (Cam) having thrown the NTC GB approach back in their face, much to the LTA's disgust, and another (Joe) having practically nothing to do with the LTA, sort of backs it up.

My point is that the the federation should have a structure where the likes of Oli Golding, George Morgan, Marcus, etc. etc. reach their potential and, in particular, get them through the tricky 18-23 phase successfully. (Particularly true for men, IMO, but not only).

There are plenty of foreign players who weren't particularly motivated, or well-behaved, or anything (much as Marcus) who are now top-100 players (and better) because their federation allowed them to grow up under good guidance, rather than expected them to behave like mature, conventional 30 year-olds from the day they turned 19.

emmsie69 · Top national player

Coup Droit wrote:
From Matt Smith (tennis coach)

Matt Smith
@smithy_red
·
2h
It was a real privilege to be a small part of this man's journey.

A stand up guy in every way, I'm looking forward to working together again in a different arena.

Unfortunately another in a long list of severely mismanaged talent in Britain.

I'm a bit tired of al the blame for these players lack of progress falling on the LTA. I'm pretty sure they don't have to go with an LTA coach, but it seems it's comfortable and maybe its' the desire to take the easy route with the LTA that shows the lack of drive and ambition that it takes to get to the stop. Clearly Sturat Parker is going his own way, Harriet went off to Turkey I think. Is the LTA perfect, of course not but a driven player will do what's best for their career not whats most comfortable for them.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

emmsie69 wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
From Matt Smith (tennis coach)

Matt Smith
@smithy_red
·
2h
It was a real privilege to be a small part of this man's journey.

A stand up guy in every way, I'm looking forward to working together again in a different arena.

Unfortunately another in a long list of severely mismanaged talent in Britain.
I'm a bit tired of al the blame for these players lack of progress falling on the LTA. I'm pretty sure they don't have to go with an LTA coach, but it seems it's comfortable and maybe its' the desire to take the easy route with the LTA that shows the lack of drive and ambition that it takes to get to the stop. Clearly Sturat Parker is going his own way, Harriet went off to Turkey I think. Is the LTA perfect, of course not but a driven player will do what's best for their career not whats most comfortable for them.

That's my point - a highly driven player, with good financial support behind him/her (and talent) will do well, yes.

But in this case, what is the LTA there for????

(Stuart can do it himself because his family has means and the French system lays on a structure where it's possible).

The LTA (and any federation) is there to mentor the young players and get the best out of them, ESPECIALLY the ones who do not find the early years quite so obvious.

Take Tsonga, or any number of young players in France who were not model, driven, perfect kids at age 20.

indiana · Tennis legend

Indeed, it isn't great when pretty much the only top male player who has in the last half dozen or so years successfully come through the LTA system and was not lost is Kyle, much less difficult to deal with and a guy to quote Oakland "who really wanted it". So it would have been going some to lose/muck up him!

And that's when they seem to spend so much energy trying to protect/not lose their chosen groups as against reaching out and searching for later developing talent.

-- Edited by indiana on Saturday 6th of March 2021 09:39:25 AM

christ · Futures level

Taking Mr Evans as the example, a player is only going to reach is potential when the player decides to. The LTA can provide the environment and the facilities, but they can't decide what the player will and won't do, and how hard the player will work.

When the LTA tries to behave like a stern parent, handing out tough love (the Broady's spring to mind), the player's families went ape, and the LTA came in for nothing but pot-loads of criticism.

All the LTA can do is provide the structure and the environment, they can't provide the attitude. (Or the health, although the structure and the environment can go some way)

I'm not sure that there is any structure or environment on the planet that could have pushed Mr Willis to achieve "his potential".

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

I take your point but the LTA don't provide the right structure or environment, to allow kids to grow up, and be part of the process, and find their way.
(Oli Golding and that whole debacle about not letting them all play Wimbledon, changing their coaches, etc etc. It didn't work out, that's for sure).
And they certainly can do a lot to help the attitude, and mentor it. In fact, that's part of their job. Obviously, some players are easier than others. But, as Indy and I said before, if you're only expecting them to succeed with the ones who are already 90% sorted in that regard, then what's the point?
And I don't necessarily agree about Marcus. As said, there are plenty of French kids who were nightmares as 20 year olds but are still around now and have done very well.