LTA in court

The Optimist · ATP qualifying

RE: LTA in court

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Really interesting, The Optimist. It was exactly that sort of thing that I was asking about.

Still don't quite understand re Alex and Anna though: so, if you've qualified for funding as a youngster, you're effectively 'in for life'? i.e. your manager gives you the 'right' to access all the facilities throughout your twenties even though you no longer qualify for help/funding based on general results? That doesn't seem right . . . Or, put another way, yes, you should have access to the help they can provide. But so should the others of a similar standing (age factored in).

And I agree that it's not funding that's the most important - i.e. a few hundred pounds here or there will not make or break a career. But the help and expertise and 'peer group' benefits that a place like the NTC can provide is invaluable. And, as everyone says, whenever you go there, the place looks like a mausoleum - they're hardly a-buzzing, having to stem the crowds. The only bit that seems busy is the office!

(PS and the food is atrocious - the 'nutritionists' should be ashamed of themselves. Not saying it's unhealthy as such (although some players' plates were borderline) but REALLY badly cooked and badly planned. The Brazilian players I saw kept walking around and around, trying to find inspiration, looking completely bemused. Tasteless, out of season tomatoes and tinned sweetcorn do not constitute 'vegetables'. Never knew it was possible to so completely overcook salmon or chicken breast. Huge baked potatoes that just got filled with butter and coleslaw. Really poor.)

indiana · Tennis legend

I have no idea what goes on at the NTC other than what I read here.

But it does seem to be a no brainer ( and I certainly imagine that there are a few brains around in the tennis authorities ) that essentially any GB professional tennis player should at least have access to the facilities and some advice.

If it indeed doesn't happen it should. Well at least try it. It sounds as if they might just about cope !

paulisi · Tennis legend

I'm sure players have access to the NTC - Harry was down there in the last couple of weeks and he is not funded. It may be that he had to pay, i've no idea.

steven · Tennis legend

I know of at least one never-funded player who was in the top 1000 and didn't have any access to the NTC, though they once managed to sneak onto a court there late in the day without official approval when they were in the area, needed to practise and all the courts were empty.

That was a few years ago so maybe things have changed. If they haven't changed, I think they should - certainly if the facilities are not being used by 'priority players' at the time, I think any ranked player (at least) should be able to use the courts if they are free and get access to at least a minimal amount of advice.

How did you manage to 'spy' on the NTC, CD? wink I'm a bit shocked about the food, if that's true - I'd have thought that's one area they would definitely get right.

What The Optimist says is very interesting. When the ultimate aim is to take on the world, the Brits shouldn't be wasting time trying to undermine each other. Also don't the parents who fail to co-operate with each other realise that it might make their own lives a bit easier if they co-operated with each other over lifts, etc?! I guess the problem is exacerbated by the fact that players feel they are fighting against each other for funding, etc, but while you can't get around that entirely, anything which fosters less of a "them and us" atmosphere (like broadening access to the NTC and making all serious pros feel welcome) must surely help.

Up until only a few years ago, it seemed like the Brits not liking to see each other do well thing carried over to senior level as well but I get the distinct impression that most of them are a lot more supportive of each other these days, which is great - it must be so lonely on tour that having anyone else at a tournament who is on your side (unless you're actually playing each other, obviously!) has to be a positive thing for everyone concerned. Obviously you can make friends on tour with players from other countries too (and if players do that, that's great for lots of reasons) but players from your own country (with whom you might have grown up and with whom you might one day be in a DC or FedCup team) are a good place to start.

If indeed there has been a change at senior and older junior level with GB players being more supportive of each other and the powers that be can work out how it came about, maybe they could find a way to filter that goodwill down the age range a bit too ...

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

I wasn't spying, honest gov.

I was there for the ITF event last year. But the canteen/restaurant bit was open to everyone (visitors included) and it's the normal canteen i.e. the players in the ITF event were eating there but so were the women (Tara and Heather and others) who were presumably there for training (and to support?) as well as some visiting players (including a couple of Brazilian women).

I actually went in to get a 'proper' lunch (yes, and to have a look round!) and ended up with a sandwich (mediocre but passable) and soup (pretty poor - not sure it was freshly made, it was more flour than proper ingredients) because the food was honestly as poor as I've described i.e. I wouldn't go so far to call it actually 'unhealthy' (i guess a plain chicken breast cooked within an inch of destruction and completely dried out is not unhealthy, as such) but it was most certainly badly cooked and badly chosen and badly put together as a menu. There were no salads (I don;t count putting out a few ingredients such as iceberg lettuce and unripe tomatoes - that's not a salad), no interesting vegetables, the pasta was maybe OK but was also dried out and plain, I could go on and on . . . . . Certainly, well over 50 % of the men were choosing the humongous baked potato option and then, as I say, filling it with butter/coleslaw/tuna mayonnaise/cheese etc. I agree it looked one of the better options but it wasn't a 'sportsman's' choice for lunch.

I think the real obvious point from the above comments is that it would be good if the LTA were a little more transparent with their policy. It is largely public money and there is no reason that their general policies should not be generally available. It would stop us accusing them of things that are maybe not true (if people like Harry are getting the use of the facilities) but also highlight things that are not quite right if, as several seem to agree, the facilities are often empty/unused and there are good players who could benefit.

The Optimist · ATP qualifying

Wow - you've spent too long on France CD if you expect anything like decent food at a sports venue!!!!!! Seriously, the food at the NTC has gone down since it first opened, it was a good healthy offering then. It's not too bad now if you get there as soon as the food goes out but it is variable. I think initially the catering was set up on the assumption that it would be full of players using it as a hub but that has never really happened in practice, just a few at any one time. Therefore think the catering has changed to save money and to target the office staff rather than the players. On the subject of food the NTC offering has got to be better than appears at many UK tournaments (esp junior ones), sausages, burgers, cakes and sweets.

I think it is the experiment in funding juniors from a young age, together with the ratings/ranking system being applied to ever younger players that has encouraged tennis parents to be so insular in this country. Ambitious parents with players in the younger age groups behave like their child is a star at Wimbledon or at least the next Serena/Rafa in the making. The whole process for many families is all about getting the ratings rise, the funding package etc, etc and they lose sight of the fact that it is also junior sport for enjoyment and making friends. They don't want their child to be hanging around waiting for their mate's match to go on or chilling out with the other kids. They don't want to help anyone else in case that child does better in some way than their own - they see this as 'professionalism'. It is a real reason why so many good young juniors give up in their mid teens when they can assert themselves and spend their time doing something which is more fun. I think it is a real shame. I have no experience of France but in Spain juniors can play all types of tournaments whenever they like, whether against adults or other juniors and it all seems much more relaxed and friendly as junior sport should be (not to say that the young players aren't trying hard or giving their best). Over here, it can be quite hard to get into junior events and to get lots of matches and juniors can always end up playing the same small group of opponents as we are so rigid about playing within your own age band. Both of these factors also encourage an unhealthy competition between families and stop them seeing that they are all on the same journey and that it would be more fun sharing it.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Really interesting comments (as always The Optimist). You don't have to answer this but was just wondering if you were either a parent of such kids caught up in the UK system or, indeed, one of the kids (ex-kid?) yourself?

The lack of competition in general is such a problem in England, for all ages, not only juniors. On arriving here, I tried to find a normal, regular proper tournament I could take part in (intermediate sort of level). None. Some doubles stuff if you belonged to a club team. Some 'friendly' singles spread out over 6 months that counted for nothing. But no regular adult tournament. From the relatively average sized county where I'd used to be in France there are about 25 tournaments a year.

There are also about 20 kids' tournaments (open to all), each one going from beginner level to county level, some with regional players playing too.

And, yes, the rules for kids in France in, in effect, simple. If you're only 12 or below you shouldn't really take part in adult competitions (although some do). If you're 13 or above no one will care and everyone does. There is a complicated rule system that says if you're 13/14 you can play in adult individual competitions if you are under-ranked 3 notches, 15-16 underranked 2 notches etc. And the definition is difficult (some need a certificate signed by the local FFT coach).

But, net net, nobody pays the slightest attention. And all 13/14 year olds play adult tournaments, and also play in the 15/16 category. Or whatever happens to suit. (As do some of the 11 year olds). I once was captain of a team of 15 year-olds (including my son) who were our club's fourth 'adult' team in the adult regional league. It was 7.30 on Sunday morning. We had an hour's drive to the away match and I was picking everyone up form the nearby supermarket carpark. Suddenly a mother calls and says sonny jim is sick and can;t come. So we've now only 3 players which is not a full team and means, in theory, we could arrive and be disqualified. No matches, just lose. Not likely to happen (more normal to just 'give' the match of the boy who couldn't make it and play the other matches). But technically possible and not a risk I wanted to take if we'd driven a hour to get there. Too short notice to call the reserve player. So I kicked my 11 year-old out of bed (fast asleep) and bundled him into the car and he was our fourth 'man' for the day. And he won, by a whisker, against a 40 year-old who was delighted to play him because it was very close and, thanks to the system, he'd have got mega bonus points for beating him. My 15 year-old played a guy who was over 60. One of the other lads played a boy of about 13. It was a bit of everything. And sunny. and quite a lot of spectators. And free food provided by the club . . . . a nice Sunday . . .

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's very relaxed, lots of mixed teams (i.e. youngsters and veterans). Youngsters take the mick out of the old men with their chopped forehands and 'shuffling' around the court, the old men take the mick out of the youngsters for their pretty top-spin forehands but complete lack of slice, nouse and 'cunning' tactics. People learn from each other. And it's the same whether you're in the first team or the fourth team, it's just the absolute level that is different.

NB Should add that there ares lots of things that are really messed up in France. And some things that are truly pitiful. But tennis (and food) are not among them :)

-- Edited by Coup Droit on Thursday 17th of April 2014 01:44:52 PM

baxi2 · Lower Club Player

Any news on the Stoute/LTA courtcase !

I think that the moment it looks like Isaac may come out on top , the LTA will come up with an "out of court" settlement !

I seem to remember the same happened with Yasmin Clarke !

The LTA may be poor at producing players and governing the game but they are masters at PR and damage limitation even resorting to the use of Max Clifford in the past .

What a great way to spend your budget then have to announce sweeping cutbacks in funding !!

EddietheEagle · County player

You would think the LTA imaginative enough to put on a few open days, exhibition matches and so on and invite people inside to come and see for themselves how tennis is organised and run in the UK. Or is that asking a bit much of them? Perhaps they're too embarrassed about that Egg module thing they were boasting about which players can relax in after their endeavours on court. They certainly ought to be.

PaulM · Tennis legend

LTA would probably spend more defending an action than settling it, so it wouldn't surprise me if this doesn't get to court (assuming the Stoute's get the technical point overturned and so are able to get the merits heard at all). As someone who deals with litigation from time to time you should never read anything into the fact parties settle, it's not an admission of guilt by any stretch (indeed often the people raising the court settle because they know their case is weak).

A1 tennis academy · Satellite level

PaulM wrote:
LTA would probably spend more defending an action than settling it, so it wouldn't surprise me if this doesn't get to court (assuming the Stoute's get the technical point overturned and so are able to get the merits heard at all). As someone who deals with litigation from time to time you should never read anything into the fact parties settle, it's not an admission of guilt by any stretch (indeed often the people raising the court settle because they know their case is weak).

Is white Caucasian an ethnic minority yet ? maybe if Marcus willis was welsh or scots we could play the race card ?

Of course it's tongue in cheek and I am not a Ukip supporter but do you get my point ?

steven · Tennis legend

PaulM wrote:
LTA would probably spend more defending an action than settling it, so it wouldn't surprise me if this doesn't get to court (assuming the Stoute's get the technical point overturned and so are able to get the merits heard at all). As someone who deals with litigation from time to time you should never read anything into the fact parties settle, it's not an admission of guilt by any stretch (indeed often the people raising the court settle because they know their case is weak).

I'm sure you're right about that but it doesn't say much for the legal system if it costs so much to defend an action even if you're in the right that you're better off settling - it more or less offers a blank cheque to those tempted to make spurious claims (that doesn't mean I necessarily think this claim is spurious, but in general terms)

Of course, it also means that settling may cost them more in the end because of the precedent it sets.

EddietheEagle · County player

The LTA has publically refuted the allegation of racial discrimination. It cannot easily afford to settle a dubious case as that would be read by many as an admission of Stoute's claim as well as potentially open it up to more soft claims. I predict the court of appeal will reject the case anyway; there appears to have been no error in law made by the court of first instance.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

I agree that they won't settle now - there's no incentive - the case hasn't even come to trial. And, yes, there was no error in law because the court of first instance did not hear the case, it was just thrown out on a procedural problem. As such, we know nothing about the merits. If the Court of Appeal give leave for the case to be actually heard, then there's a far higher chance that the LTA will settle (although, like you Eddie, I doubt they will).