LTA in court

PaulM · Tennis legend

RE: LTA in court

EddietheEagle · County player

But where does institutionalised racism come into it? The implication of that allegation suggest the embodiment of racist policies at the LTA to reflect its racist values. I can see that charge being laid against a police force possibly, but a UK sporting body, in 2014? I don't see it. The LTA are so desperate for success, they'd probably fund an Eskimo with a harpoon if they felt he had half a chance of 'making it' in tennis.

Also, what is all this 'caucasian' stuff? Does the poster know what being caucasian actually means, because it doesn't mean being white?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race

The problem bodies such as the LTA face in defending allegations of racism is that the law effectively shifts the burden of proof onto the accused. That leaves it open to the vexatious or self-deluded chancer who seem to abound in this 'no win, no fee' age.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

I don't believe that Stoute has to show institutionalised racism.

Under the Racial Discrimination Act, all Stoute has to show is that he, alone, was subject to racial discrimination (that's so, isn;t it ?PaulM ?)

As such, institutionalised racism might be relevant from a point of view of evidence. But it's not necessary, it's not the accusation.

The problem of evidence is a separate thing - how to convince a jury - but one shouldn't say that just because something is difficult to prove that it shouldn't be a crime.

PaulM · Tennis legend

Yeah he's just claiming that he was discriminated against because of his race. They infer there is institutionalised racism within the LTA (which is why he was discriminated against) but that's not the strict allegation.

It will be interesting to see how the LTA target the allegation, will they come up with a list of other people they have't funded from all over the place, or highlight the 'non-white' players they have had in their set-up over the past few years. Say that they just don't think Isaac was all that good?

It may also be that a particular individual has said or done something which Stoute considers to be discrimination. If that's the case then the LTA as a wider organisation only comes in if there was some kind of complaint made to the LTA about the individual's conduct and Stoute considers it was mishandled (e.g. they dismissed it out of hand, carried out the grievance procedure incorrectly or unreasonably, that type of thing). I'm not sure if that is how this has all started or if it's really a wider attack at LTA central.

-- Edited by PaulM on Wednesday 28th of May 2014 12:51:30 PM

BeefyDeedz · Pro player

If the Stoute's believe that they have a case, then they have facts, or at least inferences from facts, as to racial discrimination. Considering the LTA's hefty legal weight, it would surely make more sense for the LTA to argue the law if it cannot argue the facts. The problem that the LTA have is that this is a lose/lose situation for them, as they will have to appear brutal and disconnected if they attack Stoute's ability or character, will appear distant from the public good by using legal weight to defeat the 'underdog', or will lose in general. If Isaac's basis is rooted in the Equality Act 2010, and the LTA qualify as a 'service-provider', then this could become very interesting.

EddietheEagle · County player

Coup Droit wrote:
I don't believe that Stoute has to show institutionalised racism.

Under the Racial Discrimination Act, all Stoute has to show is that he, alone, was subject to racial discrimination (that's so, isn;t it ?PaulM ?)

As such, institutionalised racism might be relevant from a point of view of evidence. But it's not necessary, it's not the accusation.

The problem of evidence is a separate thing - how to convince a jury - but one shouldn't say that just because something is difficult to prove that it shouldn't be a crime.

I was responding to the poster's comment and his fanciful description of the LTA as institutionally racist and favouring 'caucasians' over I know not what.

A1 tennis academy · Satellite level

Winning is not life and death it's the only thing , it's a win -lose

With the right legal representation Lta will win it's a publicity stunt that the Lta should Not cower away from

It's not racism its elitism MR Stout surely knew tennis was expensive maybe the answer was always find a cheaper sport !

How can they be racist when they have supported heather Watson & Dave rice ? and have major initiatives that actually are focused on attracting minorities .

Ukip maybe racist but not having this the LTA are not ! Not having it !

-- Edited by A1 tennis academy on Wednesday 28th of May 2014 06:36:57 PM

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

A1, the fact that the LTA support Heather and David might defeat a charge of institutionalised racism but, as discussed above, it has absolutely nothing to do with Isaac's claim for personal racial discrimination.

I'm not saying that the LTA did racially discriminate against him but you really can't make a blanket statement about Isaac's experience and his claim until you've heard his side of the case.

And nobody yet has heard his side (not indeed the LTA's side) because it hasn't come to court yet. Which it will (unless it's settled). And then a jury can make up their mind.

But you can't dismiss Isaac's claim just because of what's happened to others.

EddietheEagle · County player

BeefyDeedz wrote:
If the Stoute's believe that they have a case, then they have facts, or at least inferences from facts, as to racial discrimination.

Doesn't follow at all. False belief and delusion often go hand in hand, irrespective of facts.

indiana · Tennis legend

I have no idea generally as to the important facts here. There might be a good case, there might not.

But I have certainly read Mr Stoute snr in the past making many inferences, and one didn't need inside knowledge to shake one's head at quite a few of them.

It will also possibly be worth his legal team getting further opinions to say such as relative ability and rankings, rather than risk being perhaps made to look foolish at times.

And there is probably a natural inclination of folk once they become very dubious about some parts of a case to be more wary of other parts.

Ratty · County player

Coup Droit wrote:
And nobody yet has heard his side (not indeed the LTA's side) because it hasn't come to court yet. Which it will (unless it's settled). And then a jury can make up their mind.

Civil case = no jury

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

You're quite right, they won't have one in this case, my error.

But civil cases can certainly have a jury.

Most common for defamation cases, but can be other cases too.

-- Edited by Coup Droit on Wednesday 28th of May 2014 09:09:55 PM

Ratty · County player

Under the Equality Act (I'm guessing that it's either Section 29 for Service Providers, or Section 101 for Associations and their Members) it is prohibited for the LTA to treat Isaac Stoute less favourably than the LTA treats others, as a result of Isaac's race. The remedies are injunctions to stop the offending action, and/or the awards of financial restitution.

Now most of us have no inside information about what's been going on, and have not the faintest notion of whether the LTA has contravened the Equality Act. We will all have our own opinions, and I would guess that these are largely determined by our own ethnicity and political persuasions.

Nevertheless, there's plenty of heat (mainly from the usual suspect), but not much light. Why not leave it to play out in court - judges are on the whole extremely intelligent and sensible people. Although of course the likelihood is that it will never get that far.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

If Isaac is claiming for acts committed before 1st October 2010, the Equality Act won't apply, but (presumably) the Race Relations Act (I'm not sure of the date of the allegations, there may well be different dates).

Doesn't really make any difference though . . .

Equality · Social player

A1 tennis academy - Looks like you missed your calling, politics.

You have failed to answer any of the questions put to you in response to your previous posts.

If you are only interested in spouting LTA propaganda why don't you declare your interests and state that you do not want the LTA to change how they do things because they act largely in your best interests.

Finally I asked a simple question based on ranking, I didn't think you could get more definitive than rankings in tennis to put things simply and in black and white (forgive the pun). However the general response to that post probably how we in tennis let ourselves down. When the question of race is even suggested in discussion with the LTA a question requiring simple black and white response quickly assumes the complexity of 50 shades of grey.

This is now becoming controversial but, the majority of people in tennis don't want change at the LTA, because they have a vested interest, they can see the system is for the majority fair. The problem is if the system is not fair for all, it cannot be fair for anyone.

A1 look at your previous posts a response would be appreciated!

-- Edited by Equality on Thursday 29th of May 2014 04:43:58 AM