LTA in court

Equality · Social player

RE: LTA in court

The Optimist · ATP qualifying

Equality, you refer to the simple question you asked based on rankings. Myself and other posters asked for clarification about Isaac's ranking - at what age and in which rankings (LTA U12/u14/U16/U18, TE14, TE16 or ITF) did he hold the No 1 ranking?

Would appreciate the extra info.

indiana · Tennis legend

From memory, I believe that Isaac was the highest ranked Brit of his age group in the ITF junior world rankings before some such as Ashley and Sapwell got significantly involved in ITF events, but had shown themselves in Tennis Europe events.

I recall that Mr Stoute snr also came out with the line about Isaac being no 1 in his age group without dwelling too much on detail.

However, I am sure Equality will be much more on the ball regarding this than I am, so would be interesting to hear.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Equality, I agree with most of your points but, purely from what I remember, (and wouldn't swear to it) Dave Rice was indeed funded/supported and then 'blotted his copybook' (by some antics at a nightclub???).

Now, I think the LTA has been rather daft in their treatment of youngsters' misdemeanors - there are certain lines that shouldn't be crossed but 'kids are kids' and all that and it is up to them to guide their behaviour, insofar as it relates to their tennis, and to realise that they are not their parents (public money or not). That's another discussion though.

But just as A1 is wrong, in my view, to say that Isaac can't have a claim because other non-white players haven't suffered racial discrimination, it's equally wrong to suggest that the LTA only very begrudgingly (if at all) supported Heather/Dave, therefore implying they are racist in general.

Equality · Social player

Coup Droit: The LTA's funding of Heather only began around the time she won the Junior US Open so they came very late to the party when compared with other players they funded.

ITF ranking Jan 2011 I think.
I also made the point that it was a general response to my post that looked to qualify something as definitive as ranking. Why the complication? There's no need for qualification there is a need for consistency, which is often lacking in dealings with the LTA. imho.

BeefyDeedz · Pro player

A1 tennis academy wrote:
How can they be racist when they have supported heather Watson & Dave rice ?
-- Edited by A1 tennis academy on Wednesday 28th of May 2014 06:36:57 PM

This is the kind of 'watertight' argument that allowed hundreds of private schools in the USA continue the outlawed, segregational, 'separate but equal'. Not an indictment on Stoute's claim, nor an indication of LTA racism, but cherry-picking a few of the 'special' minorities in order to appear anti-racist is a tactic long known to be spurious.

Equality · Social player

The Optimist wrote:
Equality, you refer to the simple question you asked based on rankings. Myself and other posters asked for clarification about Isaac's ranking - at what age and in which rankings (LTA U12/u14/U16/U18, TE14, TE16 or ITF) did he hold the No 1 ranking?
Would appreciate the extra info.

The LTA system for Matrix funding takes the top 8 in ITF ranking or TE ranking. I did not say he was ranked No 1 I said he was the No.1 ranked Brit for his age group which is very different to saying he was ITF No 1 or TE No 1 like Josh Sapwell.

A1 tennis academy · Satellite level

My point is that tennis has always been discrimatory on class - if your face does not fit or you don't have the right background & connections

I think there is discrimination but it's based on wealth & social background .

Although I did have a full out at a club when a black African player that I was sponsoring was omitted by An official at the club who claimed it was a closed tournament .

& clearly shunned by members because colour of his skin in fact I have positively discriminated and invited blackplayers into my teams others then followed .

Its very convenient for a player to pull the race card I have not seen any evidence of racism at the NTC although as I say have witnessed at clubs level .

-- Edited by A1 tennis academy on Thursday 29th of May 2014 01:05:00 PM

SMC1809 · All-time great

In 2009 Isaac was ranked at 161 in the Tennis Europe U14 (end of year rankings). This placed him 17th amongst British players. In 2010 he was ranked at 112. This was 14th amongst British players.

PaulM · Tennis legend

BeefyDeedz wrote:
A1 tennis academy wrote:
How can they be racist when they have supported heather Watson & Dave rice ?
-- Edited by A1 tennis academy on Wednesday 28th of May 2014 06:36:57 PM
This is the kind of 'watertight' argument that allowed hundreds of private schools in the USA continue the outlawed, segregational, 'separate but equal'. Not an indictment on Stoute's claim, nor an indication of LTA racism, but cherry-picking a few of the 'special' minorities in order to appear anti-racist is a tactic long known to be spurious.

It's kind of similar to the "I can't be racist cos I have black friends" type argument. I don't think it's what the LTA will try to use though. I imagine that, if all is above board, they will just lay out the criteria they apply/applied for funding and demonstrate that it was applied across the board with examples of who made the cut and who didn't, and an explanation of why Isaac didn't. If, for whatever reason, the only individuals who met the criteria were white (although there are likely to be individuals within that from various ethnic backgrounds) then that's not discrimination on grounds of race, but points to wider issues of there not been good enough access to tennis for those other groups (I believe this is now starting to improve a little at the younger age groups, I've heard some really good things about Baptiste for example).

I know that there are a number of people who have heard about this case (current and past players, coaches etc...) who believe a far stronger case could be made against the LTA for funding decision discrimination based on sex and location in the UK (funding traditionally being heavily weighted to boys in the south east). The stuff about sleeping in a car didn't meet with a great deal of sympathy given the cost-cutting measures most aspiring players have taken on their journey.

indiana · Tennis legend

So, now we have from Equality that Isaac was top ranked Brit for his age group in, he thinks, January 2011 when Isaac was aged 14.

Combined with the Tennis Europe information above, I am even more of the thought that this was only because Peter Ashley, Josh Sapwell and others had hardly played any ITF events at that stage ( or any at all ? ).

If so, this is a bit of a joke and for Equality to claim that it is absolutely clear is ludicrous. At the best of times comparative ITF junior rankings, particularly at younger and older junior ages, have to be taken with a fair pinch of salt. But jeez !

I can't be bothered looking into the various players' full history, but if it is pretty much as I surmised, it does 'the number one Brit in age group' claim very little credit. I would anticipate the LTA's lawyers ripping that apart if it is tried in court.

PaulM · Tennis legend

Is Matrix funding not based on positions at a snapshot place in time? It's not fluid in the sense that you move in and out of the funding throughout the year is it (i.e. if you don't meet the criteria at the relevant date, the fact you might meet it 3 months later isn't relevant)?

I could well be wrong, but I'm sure I remember seeing something in the docs about it being based as at a certain date.

GBTG did some investigations into matrix funding (comparing boys to girls) and this document from 2012 may be of interest in terms of setting out the criteria applicable:-

www.gbtennisgirls.com/downloads/Matrix%20summary%20by%20year.pdf

This one appears to confirm Issac was elgible for, and receiving, Matrix A funding in 2009:-

www.gbtennisgirls.com/downloads/GBTG%20equal%20opportunities%20position%20statement.pdf

(EDIT - sorry the hyperlinking has gone funny here, but if you copy and paste the whole thing - up to and including .pdf - and paste it into your browser the docs should load)

-- Edited by PaulM on Thursday 29th of May 2014 03:37:03 PM

baxi2 · Lower Club Player

A1 tennis academy wrote:
My point is that tennis has always been discrimatory on class - if your face does not fit or you don't have the right background & connections
I think there is discrimination but it's based on wealth & social background .
Although I did have a full out at a club when a black African player that I was sponsoring was omitted by An official at the club who claimed it was a closed tournament .
& clearly shunned by members because colour of his skin in fact I have positively discriminated and invited blackplayers into my teams others then followed .
Its very convenient for a player to pull the race card I have not seen any evidence of racism at the NTC although as I say have witnessed at clubs level .

I agree with Gary !
There has always been discrimination on wealth and social background but I think the LTA are too PC to allow themselves to be seen as racist . The toffs running the show have always disliked the competition from the "underclass" - preferring their own kind to be the main players benefiting from WCs,funding etc ! If they can't cut it playing singles then finding top doubles partners for them seems to be the order of the day.
Nepotism has always been rife within the LTA , keep your eyes open over the next few years for the sons and daughters of many LTA employees and ex employees as they try to begin to play the circuit ! Wildcards by the handful ?

-- Edited by A1 tennis academy on Thursday 29th of May 2014 01:05:00 PM

Ratty · County player

baxi2 wrote:
Nepotism has always been rife within the LTA , keep your eyes open over the next few years for the sons and daughters of many LTA employees and ex employees as they try to begin to play the circuit ! Wildcards by the handful ?

No doubt you also wondered back in 2008 how the Chairman of the All England Club's daughter managed to get a wildcard into the main draw of Junior Wimbledon:

http://www.itftennis.com/juniors/tournaments/tournament/info.aspx?tournamentid=1100017625

smile

-- Edited by Ratty on Thursday 29th of May 2014 07:37:31 PM

Equality · Social player

PaulM wrote:
I know that there are a number of people who have heard about this case (current and past players, coaches etc...) who believe a far stronger case could be made against the LTA for funding decision discrimination based on sex and location in the UK (funding traditionally being heavily weighted to boys in the south east). The stuff about sleeping in a car didn't meet with a great deal of sympathy given the cost-cutting measures most aspiring players have taken on their journey.

A far better case or just a case of hot air? What have they done to further this claim? Criticised the case of someone with the tennis balls that they lack who has stood up to the LTA and said tell it to a Judge.

Coup Droit: Have you offered the Stoute's your help? They look like they may need it soon and you seem to know what you're talking about.

Strike now for Truth, Justice and the American way.... You get the gist.