LTA in court

indiana · Tennis legend

RE: LTA in court

TMH · Futures qualifying

indiana wrote:
Yes, as TMH indicates this top 300 thing by 18 just does not apply generally for top 100 players, but certainly there is such a correlation much more with players at the very top of the rankings and Slam winners, again "to an extent" as TMH surmised.

8 of the current top 10 were top 300 before their 19th birthday, indeed 6 of them before their 18th birthday, with Gasquet winning that contest ( but not so far the big later contests ), being 15 !

The exceptions are Ferrer, who was 19 and most notably, with the route he came, Isner who was 22 and indeed wasn't ranked in singles until he was 20.

I can't be bothered to go systematically beyond the current top 10, but I am pretty sure there is likely to be a fairly rapidly diminishing correlation with being top 300 by 18 as one goes down the top 100.

I wonder what real study has been done into this, not necessarily with these precise criteria. As has been said, it will no doubt have changed over time, with the average age of top players and when they broke through getting older.

For some sad reason that I can't explain, I actually find the subject quite fascinating. Just started working on a spreadsheet now (it's a very slow working day today). Think I'll refrain from posting about it on this thread, as it's gone off on a bit of a tangent already. Happy to post it in a new thread though, if anyone would be remotely interested. Also looking at CH @ 23 and Age when they broke the top 100.

Neither Tsonga nor Raonic broke the top 300 until after their 19th birthdays. At a very similar age to Kyle, in-fact.

-- Edited by TMH on Thursday 10th of April 2014 01:57:19 PM

steven · Tennis legend

Sounds interesting, though I'm glad you're the one doing the spreadsheet for it wink Starting off a new thread would definitely make sense.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Go for it, TMH !

Indy, the French federation has paid lots of money and done some serious research into it. I've seen their work but don't have a copy with me here (and it's not on-line).

Certainly, the figures they have show that the average age for breaking into the top 100 (for the very first time) is about 27. This is obviously heavily weighted by players who break in briefly and then fall out again i.e. it does not factor in how many weeks you've spent there. That is, (taking it to extremes) if 50 guys break in when they're 18 and stay there until they're 30, it counts simply as 50 at 18. If then a thousand guys break in at age 27-30, each only staying for one week, that's 330 at 27, 330 at 28 and 330 and 29. So the average age overall is really high, about 27.5.

Which again backs up the argument that the very top guys will probably break in quite young, but there's a heap of top 100 players (who most people don't know/care about but who make a very decent living) who break in well into their twenties (as shown by TMH) and a whole heap who practically nobody's ever heard of who break in briefly in their mid-late twenties and also manage to make a reasonable living.

The average age to record your CH is now 27 for women and 28 for men, which again is coherent i.e. it's the first same time as when you break into the top 100, as that's about your CH for that profile of player. For the better guys it'll be the first time they break into the top 50, or whatever.

indiana · Tennis legend

Yes, does indeed sound interesting, TMH. I was just too damned lazy ( I do have the time today ) to look into it further. And clearly it was unnecessary anyway :)

Thanks, CD, for that info. Good to see the French federation on the ball.

A1 tennis academy · Satellite level

Totally agree

A1 tennis academy · Satellite level

So arguably there are 80 players who should be a greater priority for support & funding .

I have never seen any evidence that the LTA as an institution are racist quite the opposite there have been a number of projects which have specifically targeted ethnic minorities particularly in the inner cities albeit without significant success from from a performance Stand point so far but it is still early days .

One of the problems I have encountered with my free tennis for kids initiative in Orpington lets say the Cinderella borough of Bromley is that the parents from working class backgrounds do not have the funds for the enormous amount of travel to tournament & ratings tournaments irrespective of the fact that we are are providing free coaching for children at A1 Pharmaceuticals ltc . Children from the poor inner city are often from single parent families who cannot afford the time and funds required to pursue performance tennis for their children . We need to follow the example of other sports such as football & athletics we need particularly the larger wealthier clubs to seize the initiative and make a sustained effort to recruit and support talent from all disadvantaged members of our society irrespective of race , religion , creed Or indeed wealth .

I would like to see the large wealthier clubs attempt to fill this gap and for example take performance kids in a club bus with a coach driving & in attendance to junior tournsments & ratings matches as a team . Make it easy for children from financially disadvantaged backgrounds .

There are plenty of causian players that feel that they are discriminated against not on race but because they are financially disadvantaged . We need to focus on supporting & developing talent from the poorer communities in our society irrespective of their race , religion or creed .

Sadly tennis is still an elitest sport which I often advise patents not to go into with professional ambitions unless they can afford the time & indeed the money which becomes equivalent to the cost of a private school education at 12 years +

Tennis in the Uk does not discriminate on race it discriminates against the financially and in my opinion the intellectually disadvantaged .

I would like to see wealthy club's eg park Langley & Queens ( close to large inner city minorities ) to do more to support financially disadvantaged children & families . I tried to set up performance funds to help the best talent at a number of clubs & the kent LTA and was astonished by the lack of support from the average club member .

The lack of support for such an initiative was shocking . I suggest that at large clubs like park Langley that have Recieved a huge amount of LTA & lottery funding we should expect more !

We all know from the disproportionate success of the Afro Caribbean community in athletics & football what could be achieved in tennis these sports have great roots within working class communities an act that although we are following is progressing far too slowly for my liking .

-- Edited by A1 tennis academy on Friday 11th of April 2014 08:43:59 AM

-- Edited by A1 tennis academy on Friday 11th of April 2014 08:50:49 AM

TMH · Futures qualifying

Oh by the way 23 of the current top 50 didn't break the top 300 until after their 19th birthdays, and 7 of those didn't break it until after their 21st birthdays. Most noticeably Ferrer, Tsonga, Raonic, Isner, Simon and Monaco all broke it at 19 - all went on to make the top 10 in the world with two Grand Slam finals, two Masters titles, numerous Masters finals and multiple Davis Cup titles between them.

-- Edited by TMH on Friday 11th of April 2014 10:00:42 AM

A1 tennis academy · Satellite level

TMH wrote:
Oh by the way 23 of the current top 50 didn't break the top 300 until after their 19th birthdays, and 7 of those didn't break it until after their 21st birthdays. Most noticeably Ferrer, Tsonga, Raonic, Isner, Simon and Monaco all broke it at 19 - all went on to make the top 10 in the world with two Grand Slam finals, two Masters titles, numerous Masters finals and multiple Davis Cup titles between them.

-- Edited by TMH on Friday 11th of April 2014 09:28:52 AM

My current policy for consideration of financial support are players that have achieved an ATP singles ranking at 17 years old or younger who are British , do not currently recieve LTA or aegon funding and are deemed financially disadvantaged . I would be interested to know which players if any meet this criteria At the moment ?

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

TMH wrote:
Oh by the way 23 of the current top 50 didn't break the top 300 until after their 19th birthdays, and 7 of those didn't break it until after their 21st birthdays. Most noticeably Ferrer, Tsonga, Raonic, Isner, Simon and Monaco all broke it at 19 - all went on to make the top 10 in the world with two Grand Slam finals, two Masters titles, numerous Masters finals and multiple Davis Cup titles between them.

-- Edited by TMH on Friday 11th of April 2014 10:00:42 AM

Who are the 7 who were after the 21st birthdays ?

(NB keep up the good work!!!!)

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

A1, I've stopped arguing with you re doubles because we obviously don't see eye to eye, which is fine.

But your points re the financial sponsorship side of the LTA are SPOT ON!

As you say, tennis in the UK is a social/financial elite sport, irregardless of race.

I've been truly shocked, rocked in my socks sort of shocked, by the cost of playing tennis as a junior in the UK and the lack of general widespread help from the LTA.

Doing a few 'inner city' tennis lessons will not really make a dent. After all, why gets kids into tennis if they can't afford to continue?

Just to repeat a few European methods that work (although not all of them easy to replicate):

Public clubs, i.e. no private 'you've got to have your name put forward by someone important to be accepted' clubs.

Cheap membership rates (subsidised by the local sports' councils via taxes and FFT monies)

Juniors having exactly the same membership rights as adults

Cheap coaching at various different levels, getting progressively cheaper for the better players i.e. 150 euros for a school year's worth of 1 hour a week group lessons, 250 euros for a year of 3 hours a week.

Sports coupon for children in 'disadvantaged' families (taken from tax returns, and those on benefits). Redeemable into free sports lessons in any sport association.

Federation offices and teams in every single department (county)

These teams offer practically free extra coaching to the most promising youngsters (there'll be about 50 in a 'normal' county), take them on tournament trips etc.

And provide training and refresher courses for all the other coaches in the county.

Lots of tournaments and team competitions, open to all.

Half a dozen 'centres of excellence' around the country for youngsters aged 13-18 which are practically free and are tennis hot-houses (plus compulsory schooling)

More lower ranked versions i.e. centres that have arrangements with local colleges so kids can have modified timetables to allow time off for tennis

etc. etc.

I applaud the work you're trying to do in this field, A1, and wish you every luck - it's an uphill battle.

TMH · Futures qualifying

Coup Droit wrote:
TMH wrote:
Oh by the way 23 of the current top 50 didn't break the top 300 until after their 19th birthdays, and 7 of those didn't break it until after their 21st birthdays. Most noticeably Ferrer, Tsonga, Raonic, Isner, Simon and Monaco all broke it at 19 - all went on to make the top 10 in the world with two Grand Slam finals, two Masters titles, numerous Masters finals and multiple Davis Cup titles between them.

-- Edited by TMH on Friday 11th of April 2014 10:00:42 AM

Who are the 7 who were after the 21st birthdays ?
(NB keep up the good work!!!!)

I just double-checked them and actually mis-calculated one (Paire), but the other six are Isner (college), Anderson, Dodig, Sousa, Bautista Agut and Rosol.

Karlovic, Matosevic (23!), Becker (24), and Kubot who have all broken the top 50 at some point in their career also didn't break the top 300 until after they turned 21. Kubot didn't break the top 100 until 27, and went on to set a career high of #41 and make a Grand Slam quarter final.

Couple of French ones that you probably know more about than me - De Schepper was 25 when he broke the top 100 (although he didn't start playing until 20/21?) and Stephane Robert was 29(!).

-- Edited by TMH on Friday 11th of April 2014 11:06:52 AM

Madeline · Admin:Moderator + Tennis Legend

I think all of us must admire the work A1 is doing in this field, it's just a pity it gets buried sometimes in wrangling about other things.

steven · Tennis legend

It is shocking if some of the things A1 is suggesting aren't already being done, e.g. "take performance kids in a club bus with a coach driving & in attendance to junior tournaments & ratings matches as a team" doesn't sound like it should be too hard to arrange (and of course it's the kind of thing Judy Murray did to some extent with the promising Scots, not just her boys, when they were young so that they could play in England on a regular basis and that certainly seems to have worked well), while CD's list probably goes a long way towards explaining why France has so many good players.

Some of these things must happen at some clubs though, i.e. there must be some clubs with a few members who are really keen to help the younger players and make a difference. As A1 says though, it's the wealthier clubs who are the ones who could really make a difference here, if they wanted to, by helping a significant number of financially-disadvantaged children to get into and stay in tennis.

indiana · Tennis legend

But a big issue does remain how much do the wealthier clubs generally want to help ?

Prescription may not be ideal, but sometimes be necessary. Has the LTA control / influence they could bring to bear by insisting that all clubs say have certain programs in place for disadvantaged kids ?