Unfair Play Sharron DAvies

Steve J · Lower Club Player

RE: Unfair Play Sharron DAvies

emmsie69 · ATP level

JonH comes home wrote:
emmsie69 wrote:
Being GC doesn't mean we hate Trans and want them dead, it just means that we believe in Biology and that no one can change their sex. Somehow saying that became hate speech. I am not a Woman because of how I feel, think, dress, look etc, I am a Woman because I have 2 x chromosomes. the Trans movement is incredibly regressive and mysogynistic.
I was piqued/peaked last year when I had a couple of run ins with 2 older TiM, 1 of them in a Female changing room, the other at work which led me to look far deeper into the Trans movement and to be frank, it is very disturbing. Twitter and the Media have done an amazing job of keeping the truth hidden, it's only now that Elon Musk is in charge that GC posters can actually post Trans stuff, previously it would all be taken down and they would be banned for hate speech.
TiM and TiF are driven by different things, an awful lot of the Women are young and have had some kind of trauma that leads them to try to opt out of Womanhood, an awful lot of the Men are AGPs, that is dressing like a Woman and entering Female spaces gives them a Sexual thrill.
Historically there were circa 5000 Transexuals, the vast majority of them Men(Transexuals have surgery) in the UK, they had to jump through hoops to get their GRA, they also recognised that they were still Male. This number stayed remarkably constant for 50 years

People use the argument that it doesn't hurt anyone else if an individual wants to present as the opposite Sex but it takes opportunity away from Women and it puts Women and Children's safety at risk.
Obviously most of us have now heard of Lia Thomas, not only did Lia steal a Woman's place on the team but when they dead heated with Riley Gaines, they got the trophy and Riley got nothing. When the female students complained about having to share a locker room with a Man who had not had any surgery, they were told to shut up or lose their place on the swimming team.
As for all the most marginalised in society garbage, Afghan Women say Hi as do Women and Children that have been trafficked for Sex and countless other genuinely marginalised groups. The fact that a movement predominately consisting of privileged western, white Men has managed to centre themselves as the most marginalised in society is testament to their power.
Anyway thanks to anyone on here who is actually prepared to research this in depth rather than just listen to soundbites and abuse those of us that believe that Sex matters not gender.
ETA In light of the 2 posters above I'll clarify that I am a Woman because I don't have a y chromosome not because I have 2 xx chromosomes. It's probably more scientifically accurate anyway

-- Edited by emmsie69 on Wednesday 9th of August 2023 07:58:11 PM

-- Edited by emmsie69 on Wednesday 9th of August 2023 08:03:18 PM
Thanks for this Emmsie and Im learning a lot and will re read to take it in. I will raise a point though and Id like your considered opinion. And remember I think Im largely on your side of this debate!

you say above you are a woman because you have 2 X chromosomes. My daughter (and Vanessa above) have Turners Syndrome daughters . Both Of our daughters are what is called mosaic, which means single x in some chromosomes. In my dlaughters case, single X in one third. Only girls have Turners, not boys. And Turners girls are definitely female, women. My daughter is a beautiful woman in every way; Vanessas daughter has had a baby boy. But neither has 2 X chromosomes , some X are single.

so is saying youre a woman due to having 2X chromosomes incorrect or simplifying it? Whats your view on that and our daughters who are Turners? Im not trying to argue , and hope you dont come back and say they arent women, but Im hoping it is not so simple as 2X is the only answer because it clearly is a little more complex than that.

thank You for listening and hopefully a considered response !

I had already re edited my post after reading about your daughters TS.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

emmsie69 wrote:
JonH comes home wrote:
emmsie69 wrote:
Being GC doesn't mean we hate Trans and want them dead, it just means that we believe in Biology and that no one can change their sex. Somehow saying that became hate speech. I am not a Woman because of how I feel, think, dress, look etc, I am a Woman because I have 2 x chromosomes. the Trans movement is incredibly regressive and mysogynistic.
I was piqued/peaked last year when I had a couple of run ins with 2 older TiM, 1 of them in a Female changing room, the other at work which led me to look far deeper into the Trans movement and to be frank, it is very disturbing. Twitter and the Media have done an amazing job of keeping the truth hidden, it's only now that Elon Musk is in charge that GC posters can actually post Trans stuff, previously it would all be taken down and they would be banned for hate speech.
TiM and TiF are driven by different things, an awful lot of the Women are young and have had some kind of trauma that leads them to try to opt out of Womanhood, an awful lot of the Men are AGPs, that is dressing like a Woman and entering Female spaces gives them a Sexual thrill.
Historically there were circa 5000 Transexuals, the vast majority of them Men(Transexuals have surgery) in the UK, they had to jump through hoops to get their GRA, they also recognised that they were still Male. This number stayed remarkably constant for 50 years

People use the argument that it doesn't hurt anyone else if an individual wants to present as the opposite Sex but it takes opportunity away from Women and it puts Women and Children's safety at risk.
Obviously most of us have now heard of Lia Thomas, not only did Lia steal a Woman's place on the team but when they dead heated with Riley Gaines, they got the trophy and Riley got nothing. When the female students complained about having to share a locker room with a Man who had not had any surgery, they were told to shut up or lose their place on the swimming team.
As for all the most marginalised in society garbage, Afghan Women say Hi as do Women and Children that have been trafficked for Sex and countless other genuinely marginalised groups. The fact that a movement predominately consisting of privileged western, white Men has managed to centre themselves as the most marginalised in society is testament to their power.
Anyway thanks to anyone on here who is actually prepared to research this in depth rather than just listen to soundbites and abuse those of us that believe that Sex matters not gender.
ETA In light of the 2 posters above I'll clarify that I am a Woman because I don't have a y chromosome not because I have 2 xx chromosomes. It's probably more scientifically accurate anyway

-- Edited by emmsie69 on Wednesday 9th of August 2023 07:58:11 PM

-- Edited by emmsie69 on Wednesday 9th of August 2023 08:03:18 PM
Thanks for this Emmsie and Im learning a lot and will re read to take it in. I will raise a point though and Id like your considered opinion. And remember I think Im largely on your side of this debate!

you say above you are a woman because you have 2 X chromosomes. My daughter (and Vanessa above) have Turners Syndrome daughters . Both Of our daughters are what is called mosaic, which means single x in some chromosomes. In my dlaughters case, single X in one third. Only girls have Turners, not boys. And Turners girls are definitely female, women. My daughter is a beautiful woman in every way; Vanessas daughter has had a baby boy. But neither has 2 X chromosomes , some X are single.

so is saying youre a woman due to having 2X chromosomes incorrect or simplifying it? Whats your view on that and our daughters who are Turners? Im not trying to argue , and hope you dont come back and say they arent women, but Im hoping it is not so simple as 2X is the only answer because it clearly is a little more complex than that.

thank You for listening and hopefully a considered response !
I had already re edited my post after reading about your daughters TS.

Thank you ! and to SteveJ as well; its a bit of a journey of discovery this for me, Im learning a lot from the various posts. Thank you.

Grachka · Club Coach

How depressing that this forum, otherwise a model of courtesy and level-headed debate and analysis about everything else, now has two threads serving as vehicles for conspiracy theories about trans women and monstering them as supposed predators trying to gain access to spaces for nefarious reasons.

As always the online debate about trans inclusion in sport (which most acknowledge is difficult and complicated and there is no answer that is fair to everyone) slips into delegitimising trans women's lives and inferring they are dangerous to other women. There is literally no respite from such unempathetic attitudes.

indiana · Tennis legend

Personally, if it's going to be discussed, I'd prefer to hear the differing views and experiences.

And if folk disagree about points made, perhaps say and why they have an alternative viewpoint.

That is called discussion and debate, which some seem to feel is often stifled.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

My personal primary involvement here is to understand more and it feels generally pretty courteous to me, no one is getting aggressive I dont think? My own personal angle is through one small corner of the debate around what we call a woman or a man and to highlight that my experience tells me its complex, as I highlighted above.

I think its fine hearing different views and opinions expressed and think this section of the board is designed for this. So long as it doesnt take away from a genuine tennis thread and remains calm , and courteous, I think that is fine.

Grachka · Club Coach

There is a difference between debating achieving fairness in sport (see my point above), and equating being trans with autogynephilia and reducing the trans "movement" - i.e. trans people advocating for themselves - as "disturbing". It goes well beyond the sport debate. It's debating their existence. I doubt anyone on this forum would want or accept that for themselves so I don't see why it is for this group either.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Grachka wrote:
There is a difference between debating achieving fairness in sport (see my point above), and equating being trans with autogynephilia and reducing the trans "movement" - i.e. trans people advocating for themselves - as "disturbing". It goes well beyond the sport debate. It's debating their existence. I doubt anyone on this forum would want or accept that for themselves so I don't see why it is for this group either.

For me it is actually the first time Ive really stepped into this debate at any level, Ive avoided it as too toxic and confusing an issue and my brain has other things filling it up. Its a small brain and easily filled. So Ive found it interesting to listen to the points made in both threads.

Grachka · Club Coach

JonH comes home wrote:
Grachka wrote:
There is a difference between debating achieving fairness in sport (see my point above), and equating being trans with autogynephilia and reducing the trans "movement" - i.e. trans people advocating for themselves - as "disturbing". It goes well beyond the sport debate. It's debating their existence. I doubt anyone on this forum would want or accept that for themselves so I don't see why it is for this group either.
For me it is actually the first time Ive really stepped into this debate at any level, Ive avoided it as too toxic and confusing an issue and my brain has other things filling it up. Its a small brain and easily filled. So Ive found it interesting to listen to the points made in both threads.

I'm not directing this at you - more at other posters in this and the other thread in General Tennis.

Anyway, I too am exiting the discussion. I've worked and volunteered in this arena long enough to know it's a hiding to nothing.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Grachka wrote:
JonH comes home wrote:
Grachka wrote:
There is a difference between debating achieving fairness in sport (see my point above), and equating being trans with autogynephilia and reducing the trans "movement" - i.e. trans people advocating for themselves - as "disturbing". It goes well beyond the sport debate. It's debating their existence. I doubt anyone on this forum would want or accept that for themselves so I don't see why it is for this group either.
For me it is actually the first time Ive really stepped into this debate at any level, Ive avoided it as too toxic and confusing an issue and my brain has other things filling it up. Its a small brain and easily filled. So Ive found it interesting to listen to the points made in both threads.
I'm not directing this at you - more at other posters in this and the other thread in General Tennis.
Anyway, I too am exiting the discussion. I've worked and volunteered in this arena long enough to know it's a hiding to nothing.

No worries , realise its not me!

Jaggy1876 · Grand Slam Champion

A lot of the problem with the various discussions on the Trans topic for me is that it seems that we get examples and stories, some of which I often think are fictional so that some people may sculpt their arguments and the bigotry they normally hide in public can be justified. Similar I think to the BLM issue whereby people with racist opinions think they have an in to mask their racism by seeing it in a different way. This time its womens rights and standing up for women some would call it. For the avoidance of doubt Im not calling all these people bigoted merely highlighting its a platform for some of these people.

The world is changing and I always think rather than picking a side and sticking to it I think we need to listen and learn to the people it affects. A lot of it baffles me, the non binary one was something I didnt get but now understand. Just because you dont understand something doesnt mean its right or wrong.

Steve J · Lower Club Player

Grachka wrote:
As always the online debate about trans inclusion in sport (which most acknowledge is difficult and complicated and there is no answer that is fair to everyone) slips into delegitimising trans women's lives and inferring they are dangerous to other women. There is literally no respite from such unempathetic attitudes.

#NoDebate is over.

The issue of trans inclusion in sport is not difficult or complicated. Sports have a choice to make. Inclusion or fairness. From the SCEG guidance -

"the Guidance concludes that the inclusion of transgender people into female sport cannot be balanced regarding transgender inclusion, fairness and safety in gender-affected sport where there is meaningful competition. This is due to retained differences in strength, stamina and physique between the average woman compared with the average transgender woman or non-binary person assigned male at birth, with or without testosterone suppression."

("gender-affected" is a confusing term from S.195 of the Equality Act 2010, it is defined in terms of sex.)

The various UK sports governing bodies are slowly choosing fairness, the most recent examples being badminton and rowing.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

I posted the USTA story that set all this off because it is about sport.

And I'll get it back to that.

NB I have a much-loved and much-liked nephew who is trans (he was born a girl) but I have deliberately not posted about that because, as per Jaggy's comments, I'm not trying to centre my arguments on a single case (which is most certainly not fictional).

So, regarding sport, there were many issues I had with USTA's position.

But one that hasn't been addressed here is the issue of self-identification.

Two posters a while back said that trans woman are woman, end of. Some people above on this page are seemingly of the same opinion. But this is overly simplistic, in my view.

Self-identification means that when a man states at 9 am that he idenitifies as a woman, he is then legally a woman as of 9.01 am. This is what USTA's policy for amateur competitive tennis effectively states. And this is not being flippant, it is the rule. They say they take the declaration on 'honour'.

But I cannot get a US Passport or play for the US Davies Cup team because I genuinely live and identify as an Amercian. I can geuninely and whole-heartedly live and identify as a 17 year-old but I cannot play Junior Wimbly. I can't do it at the amateur equivalent level either. My 'word of honour' gets me nowhere.

Having the legal right to not be discriminated against because of who you are and how you live your life does not mean that all doors necessarily are open. Indeed, nearly all human rights are qualified rights as in they need to be balanced against the rights of others, as well as that of public interest in various guises.

-- Edited by Coup Droit on Thursday 10th of August 2023 06:05:22 AM

emmsie69 · ATP level

Jaggy1876 wrote:
A lot of the problem with the various discussions on the Trans topic for me is that it seems that we get examples and stories, some of which I often think are fictional so that some people may sculpt their arguments and the bigotry they normally hide in public can be justified. Similar I think to the BLM issue whereby people with racist opinions think they have an in to mask their racism by seeing it in a different way. This time its womens rights and standing up for women some would call it. For the avoidance of doubt Im not calling all these people bigoted merely highlighting its a platform for some of these people.

The world is changing and I always think rather than picking a side and sticking to it I think we need to listen and learn to the people it affects. A lot of it baffles me, the non binary one was something I didnt get but now understand. Just because you dont understand something doesnt mean its right or wrong.

You basically just called me a liar. That is where the toxicity comes in. Both my experiences happened and both have other witnesses, 1 went to the management of the gym and it was resolved according to the law, suffice to say that as the 4 other perfectly reasonable options were not acceptable to the TiM, he is now now longer a member of the gym!! I won't say which precise gym but it is part of the Freedom Leisure group.

The 2nd one, plenty of people will have seen the TiM working at the Easyjet baggage drop last year because he was about 6'6" granted they won't have experienced his behaviour in the mess room but there were plenty of staff who did. He 'came out' as Trans on his course and was straight in the ladies bathrooms.

My No.1 concern is for Children being caught up in this ideology and going down a medicalised pathway when decent therapy would help resolve the vast majority (although not all).

I bought this on to this part of the forum purposely to remove it from the actual Tennis debate.

It is interesting that when TiMs use the argument that they aren't safe in the Men's bathrooms and have to use the Women's it's all fine but when Women use the same argument that we don't feel safe with them in there, we are bigots.

As Steve J said No debate is over, if people want to look into this further and at the end still think it's OK then fine, atleast you've done your research and are making a decision based on balanced information now rather than the one side we have had up to this point.

Helen Joyce: Parents Of Trans Children Will Not Be Able To Move On | Video | RealClearPolitics

Scroll down for the entire video but I warn you it is pretty hardcore. Certainly listen to the 1st few minutes which is just about You Tube censoring

ETA Coup Droit is absolutely right.

-- Edited by emmsie69 on Thursday 10th of August 2023 08:19:23 AM

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

my personal knowledge and limitations are exceeded here, but I find it fascinating. So much, as always, is guided by personal experience of certain situations, it is good to here others perspectives and learn.

I will follow this with interest but am going to dip out from any commenting and maybe just ask the odd question of clarification. I am still learning the acronyms as they are bluzzing my little brain big time, haha. But for now, I will leave the debate to others!!