Coup Droit wrote:

---

It's an interesting point, foobaraz

Although I do think we have to be careful about making a theory out of a couple of examples.

After all, Iga won very young and isn't injured. As did Ostapenko. Coco is playing high level young and hasn't been injured. It's true we could prevent players under 20 taking part. Or give players under 20 less points than players over 20. The safeguarding issues are important. But - just for me - I'd have to think it over a lot more, and see more stats, to have a valid opinion.

---

I do agree, up to a point, though (in general) citing individual cases, for and against, will only ever result in a fire-fighting approach.

I'd much rather see a structure put in place that was well thought out, and gave more opportunity to more players to reach their full potential, without them having to flog themselves to the point of significant injury.

I think there's room at the elite level for a two-tiered structure based on age.

The younger group should have twice the number of players than the older group, and should be viewed as a development tier. Perhaps this could be a partly regional structure also.

 

The older group should be capped at a maximum number of players, and players subject to relegation to a lower level seniors structure [but also still able to be selected for comps like BJK Cup, United Cup etc.] based on performance, age, etc.

Elite tennis shouldn't be seen so much as a career, instead it should be more about allowing as many as possible some time in the sun so they can reach their sporting potential.

The money should be split equitably across the two tiers, and there should be equal tournament opportunities also.

The Slams could easily accomodate a two-tiered elite level, after all they've added a seniors section, and I really don't see the value of mixed doubles at the slams, when all that happens is the female player is targeted relentlessly.

That's my view, all just talking points.

Coup Droit wrote:

---

Var wrote:

---

Coup Droit wrote:

---

Thrilled for Fiona Ferro !!!

Again, the rape and sexual abuse allegations are extremely disturbing (to have a coach saying 'it was love' is just stomach turning)

A really tough year for her

So just wonderful to see her get the win - and, seemingly, she is the first French player to qualify for the MD since 2006


I also note that Tauson is through to the MD

As is Danilovic

As people said, those were tought draws for Katie S and Hev

(Jaquemot and Kreuger were pretty close to qualifying too)

---

 Tough draws but there are no easy draws in Grand Slams and really clay isnt good for us (apart from a certain Sue Barker!) You might find this interesting from Dan Evens , to the point but valid I would say. Emma Raducanu 'papered over cracks' in British Tennis (msn.com)

---

 Just coming back to the 'clay' argument, there's a big article in French papers today as to why France is so useless on clay

The problem is, as I've mentioned before, that hardly nobody plays on clay in France (the same problem as the UK, then) 

There are quotes from top players who say, for instance, they never even saw a clay court until they were in their teens.

And they quote figures like this: 

"Selon des chiffres recoupés, la terre battue occupe 16% des courts en France. On monte à environ 75% en Espagne." 

i.e. only 16% of courts in France are clay, compared with 75% in Spain 

And those 16% are nearly all in the south.

Ugo Umbert, for instance, says he likes a fast ball, where he can use the other person's speed, but he's discovered on clay that it's not about power, rather:

"je me rends compte que la terre battue, il y a vraiment un côté tactique. Il faut trouver la solution pour battre son adversaire. Il faut jouer intelligemment, savoir bien se protéger. C'est quelque chose que je ne savais pas du tout faire avant."

namely, that it's all a tactical battle, you need to play smart, find the solution, protect yourself in the rally, and that it's something he basically has never learnt to do.

Santoro points out that the bods never built a big national training centre in the south, so there's far too much hard court. 

Mathieu who is in charge of men's tennis now, puts it down to the same thing - he says you learn tactics on clay and you can move that over to hard but difficutl the other way. And the bods even forgot to put an indoor clay court in the big NTC equivalent....

Basically, the French have the same polemic every year that we do - why is France one of the top tennis countries (probably top three?) and yet never gets a French player into the final, men or women, barely the semis, let alone wins it .... but at least Andy won ours  

-- Edited by Coup Droit on Sunday 28th of May 2023 01:19:09 PM

---

 Interesting - do you think they would ever change the clay at RG? 

foobarbaz wrote:

---

JonH comes home wrote:

---

Coup Droit wrote:

---

Var wrote:

---

Coup Droit wrote:

---

Thrilled for Fiona Ferro !!!

Again, the rape and sexual abuse allegations are extremely disturbing (to have a coach saying 'it was love' is just stomach turning)

A really tough year for her

So just wonderful to see her get the win - and, seemingly, she is the first French player to qualify for the MD since 2006


I also note that Tauson is through to the MD

As is Danilovic

As people said, those were tought draws for Katie S and Hev

(Jaquemot and Kreuger were pretty close to qualifying too)

---

 Tough draws but there are no easy draws in Grand Slams and really clay isnt good for us (apart from a certain Sue Barker!) You might find this interesting from Dan Evens , to the point but valid I would say. Emma Raducanu 'papered over cracks' in British Tennis (msn.com)

---

 Just coming back to the 'clay' argument, there's a big article in French papers today as to why France is so useless on clay

The problem is, as I've mentioned before, that hardly nobody plays on clay in France (the same problem as the UK, then) 

There are quotes from top players who say, for instance, they never even saw a clay court until they were in their teens.

And they quote figures like this: 

"Selon des chiffres recoupés, la terre battue occupe 16% des courts en France. On monte à environ 75% en Espagne." 

i.e. only 16% of courts in France are clay, compared with 75% in Spain 

And those 16% are nearly all in the south.

Ugo Umbert, for instance, says he likes a fast ball, where he can use the other person's speed, but he's discovered on clay that it's not about power, rather:

"je me rends compte que la terre battue, il y a vraiment un côté tactique. Il faut trouver la solution pour battre son adversaire. Il faut jouer intelligemment, savoir bien se protéger. C'est quelque chose que je ne savais pas du tout faire avant."

namely, that it's all a tactical battle, you need to play smart, find the solution, protect yourself in the rally, and that it's something he basically has never learnt to do.

Santoro points out that the bods never built a big national training centre in the south, so there's far too much hard court. 

Mathieu who is in charge of men's tennis now, puts it down to the same thing - he says you learn tactics on clay and you can move that over to hard but difficutl the other way. And the bods even forgot to put an indoor clay court in the big NTC equivalent....

Basically, the French have the same polemic every year that we do - why is France one of the top tennis countries (probably top three?) and yet never gets a French player into the final, men or women, barely the semis, let alone wins it .... but at least Andy won ours  

-- Edited by Coup Droit on Sunday 28th of May 2023 01:19:09 PM

---

 Interesting - do you think they would ever change the clay at RG? 

---

CD, thanks for the French spin on the clay-related discussion, it's interesting how French tennis, and the French Open slam seem out of step. Maybe Roland Garros is just seen as the cash cow, and hard court is viewed as the all year round surface for the masses, easy to maintain.

Ugo Umbert's quotes are also interesting. It seems to me he is describing what it's like to play against a clay court specialist, they never play the same shot twice in succession, half the time they give you rubbish with no pace to use on your return, they move you around the court with a variety of shots varying spin and swerve, then they strike with a fast arm to put you in difficulty, and they'll keep you under their thumb until they get an easy chance to kill the rally.

The thing is, not everyone who is moderately successful on the clay falls into the category of clay court specialist.

It must be remembered, also, that he's talking about the men's game.

There aren't many in the men's game that can win by raw power on a slow court, the opponent can usually return the ball, albeit perhaps having to stand very far behind the baseline to do so. Probably the men have had to adapt their game more to compete on the clay.

On the women's side, I would contend that there are two camps : the clay court specialist, and the power hitter. The latter group is quite a large one (we could probably name 20 players quite easily).

Then there's the rest of the field who try to do a bit of both, without a lot of success.

JonH, it seems inconceivable to me that RG would convert to a hard court surface, there would be an outcry by all the clay courters around the world, that their Slam should be protected. 

-- Edited by foobarbaz on Sunday 28th of May 2023 09:01:07 PM

---

 yes, I am sure you are right - It isnt too dissimilar to GB and Wimbledon though; no one in the GB game really plays grass at all apart from the brief season around WImbledon, and Wimbledon stands out against the rest of GB tennis, really. Difference is, it stands out against the rest of world tennis as well!! 

 

So, I guess you could see here's one of the problems with the UK and clay

(and NB I agree, Jon, our players barely never play or train on grass - partly because it's impossible for most of the year - so the home advantage idea backfires for us too)

But Edinburgh has a junior J60 event this week

J60 is a good level. Edinburgh is the capital of Scotland, good transport links etc etc.

And there's barely anyone in the qualis

The girls only has 11 entries in total - and only 6 of those are British

The boys have GB 11 boys who've turned up

And is this because the event is on clay?

Given the clear benefits for youngsters to play on clay (in terms of injury prevention, learning technique, learning point construction, etc), where are they all?

A certain percentage of clay should be mandatory for any player who even asks for LTA support - for their own good (yeah, I know it might not be possible for all but at least send the message)