Transitional tour

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Transitional tour

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

And seemingly the ITF are going on a charm offensive and doing a presentation soon to show how good the new system is really....

www.ubitennis.net/2019/02/german-tennis-chief-urges-revolt-changes-itf-tour/

(NB good on the Germans)

The Realist · Junior player

The facebook group is Players v itf

Strongbow · All-time great

"Curiouser and curiouser" Cried Alice smile

Michael D · All-time great

I'm glad to know the players are petitioning and doing something about it....

TomTraubert · Futures level

Michael D wrote:
I'm glad to know the players are petitioning and doing something about it....

what are the itf gonna do?

change it back?

the atp wont agre to that

if the itf cut out the priority lane for juniors then they efectively make themselves extinct - atp dont want to have to take over juniors but they DO need them to exist and be organised and crucial amature - juniors needs for them to be the pipeline of a very few highly talented hopeful exciteing and UNPAID until a pro as cheap as posible deliver the production line at which point atp will take them over and maker the money from them

if itf try to maintain the # of current pros then atp will revolt and refuse to sanction itf rankings etc itf have to reduce or they become extinct like if they fought sharapova in court over cas/wada they get ruined if lose and go bust so they had to accept the verdict

solution for the players is to be good enough to get in - just keep win youll get in everywhere - this reductive but it the lay of the land of the future
the atp and its top pros dont care if you cant make a lower level living any more it means more money to them - either you put up equivalent money as the gimmelstob/pique groups to give an alternative or you lose - no petition or players march gonna stop that - oh you what, wanna strike? all itf events canceled? fine atp events still go on and people will play in them - itf players got no union and even if did atp players aint members and wont respect it there no similarity between itf/atp just coz they tennis players, like the boxing sanctioning bodies, ibf dont care if wba/wbu etc fighters complain

everyone is fighting the wrong fight here its nuts

Michael D · All-time great

TomTraubert wrote:
Michael D wrote:
I'm glad to know the players are petitioning and doing something about it....
what are the itf gonna do?
change it back?
the atp wont agre to that
if the itf cut out the priority lane for juniors then they efectively make themselves extinct - atp dont want to have to take over juniors but they DO need them to exist and be organised and crucial amature - juniors needs for them to be the pipeline of a very few highly talented hopeful exciteing and UNPAID until a pro as cheap as posible deliver the production line at which point atp will take them over and maker the money from them
if itf try to maintain the # of current pros then atp will revolt and refuse to sanction itf rankings etc itf have to reduce or they become extinct like if they fought sharapova in court over cas/wada they get ruined if lose and go bust so they had to accept the verdict
solution for the players is to be good enough to get in - just keep win youll get in everywhere - this reductive but it the lay of the land of the future
the atp and its top pros dont care if you cant make a lower level living any more it means more money to them - either you put up equivalent money as the gimmelstob/pique groups to give an alternative or you lose - no petition or players march gonna stop that - oh you what, wanna strike? all itf events canceled? fine atp events still go on and people will play in them - itf players got no union and even if did atp players aint members and wont respect it there no similarity between itf/atp just coz they tennis players, like the boxing sanctioning bodies, ibf dont care if wba/wbu etc fighters complain
everyone is fighting the wrong fight here its nuts

For a start they need a single ranking system. Anything else is nuts.

For the women only 1300 players before had world rankings. What's wrong with that? Players know the risks of getting on the ladder... but at least it is one single ladder, not two ladders with one of them going to the adjacent building to the one you want to be in, so somehow you have to find a precarious way of climbing across.

That's the issue the players are complaining about. It's not about being good enough - many of them are - it's being able to have a fair and transparent system that everyone understands and works equally for. The new system is not that remotely.

TomTraubert · Futures level

fine but the atp dont want those players at only 15k having an atp ranking they want fewer ranked players
so they can have no ranking at all for 15k exploits or itf can put in they own ranking which is what they done
perhaps you could say that 15k win = ½ atp/wta point and all other 15k matches get nothing and theat you need at least three scores and at least 3 wta/atp points to get an atp ranking
they might go for that as it mean that 6 15k wins would be needed and effective that keep just 15k players out the atp lists
but that just fidling while rome burns
the fundamental issue is that atp want massive fewer players in they rankings
players still presuming coz they play profesional paid tournament run by itf that they deserve a ranking point in an atp/wta scheme but that calculus and mindset has been bulldozed by design the players need to catch up
a single ranking system that ignores the lowest tiers would be an alternative but is that any better to the people protesting now? qualification for those 15k would have to be orderrd somehow by national rank and that would favor player from weak nations
you could stop the junior reserves but that puts itf in more precarious mid term position and risk of extinction (tho this seems inevitable now within a decade or so)

TomTraubert · Futures level

"That's the issue the players are complaining about. It's not about being good enough - many of them are - it's being able to have a fair and transparent system that everyone understands and works equally for. The new system is not that remotely."
and it not supposed to be - it . is . designed . to . get . rid . of . more . than. half . of . all . current . players .

Michael D · All-time great

Yeah, I may have a quirky outdated belief in the values of fairness, transparency and justice... and the system can reduce numbers without being a totally unfair, elite serving, closed shop. The woman's game only had 1300 ranked players before. That's not a lot! Why can't the APT do the same as the WTA, introduce 3 counters and/or a 10 point starting qualification or whatever?

A system still needs to allow aspiring players a fair opportunity to get on the ladder, without being so up itself it's impossible to navigate. The system still has to be aspirational, allow up coming players to decide if they want to take the risk, and through whatever tiered system they want, provide opportunities for that.

It's like Theresa May's immigration system at the moment. Blatantly discriminatory in the policy mechanisms it is using to achieve aims, which in themselves are highly questionable. Ok, I'd use other words too to describe our current immigration policies here, but so would I in terms of the transition tour farce. I know very well it's aim is to cut the number of professionals by half. There is obviously a why in that too, since we already have a system that follows much of the rules of globalisation - it favours the increasing accumulation of resources and riches in the hands of the few at the expense of the many. But even if the ATP/WTA want to safeguard their contribution to global inequality, they can still do it in fairer, more transparent and less plain stupid ways, so as not to wreck the interest of all aspirants to the professional game. Having a pathway for (some) juniors only will not safeguard the future of the game.

Peter too · Tennis legend

Ultimately this is the ATP cutting off its nose to spite its face. It may seem to them that there will be more money available for the few if the cut the many but the many buy rackets and clothes, go to hotels, encourage members of their old clubs and schools to play the sport. It all helps to bring in players and fans and that huge body of fans encourages business sponsors. Cut off the lower tiers of the sport and the players and fans will drift off to other sports followed not long after by the sponsors.

JonH · All-time great

It is important to remember it was the ITF and not ATP/WTA who led this. This was their presentation in 2014

www.itftennis.com/media/194256/194256.pdf

Which highlighted that there were many pro players that didnt earn a penny, many who didnt break even at all and a need to reduce the numbers and costs for players.

Given this aspiration, you can argue that they are all achieving that aim. ATP I think jumped on this and drove the rankings changes but I dont think ITF were unwilling or driven into something they didnt want. Where the thing hasnt delivered is that they dont seem to have planned on the fact the middle band of pro's would get pushed down and caught in this ITF/ATP ranking trap. Or maybe they did expect that and actually players dropping away is what they want after all.

The document attached implies that one key thing would be provision of many more local or regional opportunities for players as part of the keeping costs down aspect. It seems that they dont seem to have any plan at all for how that would get delivered and have failed to work with local national associations to develop a structure that could be implemented. For me one tactical mistake seems to have been the desire to not require nations to hold multiple events (to keep costs down) and have a single week if a country so wishes. I actually feel this is wrong, the ITF should have subsidised or encouraged a move back to multiple week satellite style circuits like we had in the 70s and 80s. Provide a local circuit over 4 weeks , players can focus on that in one location, perhaps with some sort of prize to the circuit winner or a small end of 4 weeks masters event to award more points and I think that is the way to keep players costs down - it is constant chasing all over the world where travel costs more than prizemoney that kills the players.

But the ITF seem to have completely failed to have a plan for that aspect of it, and hence we are in a mess at the ITF 15/25 level of event. But in terms of achieving their aim of reducing the numbers of pro's and working towards more players being able to make a living, I think that aspect of it is clearly part of their strategy.

Not that I agree with it at all, but you can see where they intended to head with it all. just that they didnt have a plan to effectively deliver at the 15/25 level

edit - page 31 of the report was one of the most interesting re nations who host most event have commensurately the most ranked players. LTA take note

-- Edited by JonH on Wednesday 13th of February 2019 05:51:29 PM

TomTraubert · Futures level

and what actualy prompted the 2014 review?
gilles simon, djokovic rafa nd others all complaining about prize money and how much of it was not coming their way the threat to organize to take power into top atp hands
some said that players at the bottom end did not get enough to live and itf adresed that but it changed nothing in reality
at that time it was just high profile talk and lose grumbling

now those parties have more suppoort after 4 more years of constant lobying and they also now have massive capital invesotrs willing to rip the whole thing up to make it work for them alone much more bargain power and weight
so itf have to review again
this review solves the players at the bottom end not having enough to live on by simply making that level of player a non vible pro lifestyle by giving them no points

money has come to tennis enough to raze it to the ground and rebuild it for the few and that modern fasination of 'disruptors' as virtue will do it to
top players will go for it the bottom line alone is enough its a individual sport and the game wont die for those at the shaprest elite - but theres more of course as many in atp would happily see the end of wta or maybe have ~10 women players play on they warm up cards they dont say so out loud but they time is coming as the world in general turns that way - if they can drive all the money into a sort of champions league of hyper-matches for a very select group then they will, well so long as they think they gonna be in the elite group after the cull

i find it all disgust and disapointing but not surprising and pretend that this isnt happen or pointing the finger the wrong place and fighting the wrong battels just see you lose every time

if you value the status quo or some slight changed version then need to find equal capital to that being weilded by the disruptors and make it talk they have the money players need to match it by arguing the value propsistion of they model
i dont think that money exists tho no one gonna put billions in to save 15k/25k level tennisfor no return and i dont see how 1 man and a dog audiences on free entry is gonna cut it against the gimmelstob/pique ven-capital
tennis will still exist in a sort of ufc/wwe model and probably be more profitable and over time """fans""" will just go along with it like they always do - cricket, badminton, ice skate, gymnastics etc all change for the worse but the authorities and money always win it in the end and always hang it on some canard like in skate/gymnastics where the scoring changed for the good of sport to make it more open and transparent with the upshot that no lay person can posible hope to understand why a score be given they just have to take the judge word as that what the score matrix say
or soccer it better now than ever, right? not just more money, and endless hype, but more running around and whatever skill? no but everyone need to pretend it 'better' and not just more ruthless and cynical

the pipeline for tennis will be juniors - a gnereation in 20s now are unlucky that they will miss out mostly unless they get good enough to raise theyselves to the new lowest viable levels - juniors will be touted like us college basketballers late developers be damned nice as they are you dont real need them as long as fresh meat keeps n rolling off the production line

money dont care about tennis, only the return it can make from it - tradition history fairness decency dont come in to it just the bottom line if you dont understand that this is the first step in the assest stripping of the game then thats on you
i hate it all but cant be blind to the norms of society & sport aint immune money talks, shouts, screams and it has come demanding to tennis

JonH · All-time great

We've been here be for of course, the atp back in the famous car park revolution when they stole the tour from the iltf, wct fought and tried to take over the game. Fans will watch the big players but there is one currency bigger and will continue to remain and get bigger and that is the grand slams. Without them the top players have nothing really, the slams will survive and to be successful need the feed of players coming through. Whatever the djokos try, the slams will win and the game will survive.

Michael D · All-time great

A lot also depends on whether any more national tennis federations, like the Germans, have the guts to stand up for their players against this kleptocratic grab from the top. One thing for sure, ours won't.