Juniors playing professional senior tennis

TennisMom · Social player

RE: Juniors playing professional senior tennis

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

TennisMom wrote:
Might just be that Italy has invested in 15ks for their players, allowing competitors to start at the bottom.
Only a WC recipient can get into a 25k without a ranking.
Where as GB only invests in a couple of players & only runs 25k s & above (women). I believe there is still a mens 15k
You reap what you sow.

100%

It infuriated me when that posh older guy tennis commentator (who used to be a player), and I can't remember his name, was asked about why Italy are such a powerhouse at the moment and he said it was just 'random'! As if....

(France has 7 or 8 boys ranked. And 6-8 girls too. I know France is a bit more known for it but just to note)

NB i realise that juniors having an adult ranking is not the be-all-and-end-all, but it's just to give some form of comparison....

Strongbow · All-time great

TennisMom wrote:
Might just be that Italy has invested in 15ks for their players, allowing competitors to start at the bottom.
Only a WC recipient can get into a 25k without a ranking.
Where as GB only invests in a couple of players & only runs 25k s & above (women). I believe there is still a mens 15k
You reap what you sow.

Agreed. smile The only problem with 15ks is that they would be over-subscribed just like the 25ks. Hopefuls would find themselves against ranked players in Qualies, and against 300-500 in the MD.

We would have to have enough to dilute this - but I'm not holding my breath.

indiana · Tennis legend

Strongbow wrote:
TennisMom wrote:
Might just be that Italy has invested in 15ks for their players, allowing competitors to start at the bottom.
Only a WC recipient can get into a 25k without a ranking.
Where as GB only invests in a couple of players & only runs 25k s & above (women). I believe there is still a mens 15k
You reap what you sow.

Agreed. The only problem with 15ks is that they would be over-subscribed just like the 25ks. Hopefuls would find themselves against ranked players in Qualies, and against 300-500 in the MD.
We would have to have enough to dilute this - but I'm not holding my breath.

I doubt it io any great extent. I can't see loads of decently ranked peskies coming over for British 15Ks. You could get an unlucky draw but the odds are on much better opportunities for the home Brits trying to get a step on the ladder. I am sure that was the case in the past.

It s currently most particularly a problem on the women's side with the players generally attracted to the points of a W25 and then 2 rounds of qualifyng meaning a first match against a q seed, very likely with quite a decent ranking..

Strongbow · All-time great

Any UK 15ks would be the same as the January 15ks :-

Monastir 20/01 Q1 1215/624 CH 1058/437

Cairo 20/01 Q1 1169/552 CH 1167/552

Antalya 20/01 Q1 664/668 CH 474/668

Manacour 20/01 Q1 790/300 CH 785/30

Liepaja 20/01 Q1 947/322 CH 941/322

Stuttgart 20/01 Q1 928/638 CH 736/200

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

I agree, Indy.

Of course the Q1 player will be ranked about 900-1000.

But that's hardly very high.

And there are 32 places in the Q draw.

The Italian federation stated that laying on lots of 15ks was integral to their approach to raise tennis levels (which has been pretty spectacular, not all because of the 15ks of course). The idea is not to give 'easy' points to the players. The point is to provide the right level of match play, on a regular basis, so that youngsters can use it to improve, to get a foothold if they then want to travel, to motivate and measure themselves, and, in general, to grow their games.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

To revive this, and credit Matilda Mutavdzic (born 2004) who won her first round MD match in the 15k in Italy last week.

(Juniors playing Exhibition matches are not included although, of course, in some of them in particular, they're earning way more than in these events).

-- Edited by Coup Droit on Monday 7th of September 2020 11:03:49 AM

Oakland2002 · All-time great

But Matilda is an outstanding prospect probably our best since Emma R. Well coached and supported. The reality is the costs of tennis exclude all but the relatively affluent & the pro circuit is so small there is nowhere for hoards of kids to go to earn a wage. How could you justify running lots of 15Ks when so few will evolve to earn a sustainable wage.

The best athletes in the U.K. do not play tennis for a reason. Watched Beckenham FC play football on Saturday. Step 5 first rung of semi pro football 14 leagues 20 teams across UK. All these players have jobs and probably get from expenses to £500 a game.
I would be amazed if there is a kid at Beckenham tennis club (Which is more than decent or indeed the Bromley tennis centre) who could come close to the athleticism of a number of the boys playing, all sorts of backgrounds not the most articulate of post match discussion but pragmatic & totally invested in football other games going on at that level (Vase SF results etc...). There were probably 5-6 lads playing who would be close to sub 11 second 100m runners, Beckenhams centre back was 63 quick, agile. I am sure he will progress.

Tuesday watched a step 4 team (8 leagues of 20 across UK) play all semi pro £50-£500 a week with jobs still v Charlton U23 (so full time), even contest semi pro side could easily have won stronger tactically better (both non league coaches ex top level pros incidentally the non league manager was captain of team Bath that reached the first round proper of the FA cup now deputy head master at a school that educates boys 16-18 in a number of football academies), 2-2 draw, the difference in athleticism was vast, technically superb Charlton better and all a couple of yards faster. 18 yr old Charlton CB already played two seasons of mens football @ step 3 (Met Police) could assuming hes doesnt get injured make a very good living as a pro footballer 63 one of the quickest on the park, skilful & tough as teak. Charltons academy is very good produce a couple of top pros a year.. Jo Gomez played for England on Saturday, Nick Pope was on the bench and Sancho is from round the corner.

Despite COVID both games drew about 100 spectators @ £8 & £10 a head respectively plus bar revenue, burgers clubs probably made a profit. The Deal v Beckenham game a real family affair, Dogs being walked, kids playing non stop on spare grass didnt watch a second.
nice bar with beer garden

I think there is an underestimation of how tough it is to be even a semi professional in other sports and the levels at which they are played. Tennis has plenty of resources and players but very few are interested in the junior game unless they are earning a living from it. Virtually everyone who facilitated the games I went to was a volunteer as were many of the junior coaches who had got the young players going in the game without them many of the boys playing would not have had the resources to engage.

-- Edited by Oakland2002 on Monday 7th of September 2020 11:57:09 AM

diana · Improver

hi CD -after reading of the 90's born players in the other thread, had to look twice at Matilda Mutavdzic's dob but think she wasn't born in the 90's. 2004 more likely perhaps :)

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

diana wrote:

hi CD -after reading of the 90's born players in the other thread, had to look twice at Matilda Mutavdzic's dob but think she wasn't born in the 90's. 2004 more likely perhaps :)

Thanks, Diana - oops

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Matilda Mutavdzic, UNR, born 2004, age 16, beat the world's WTA 683, age 17, (ITF junior 14), in R1 at the ITF15k in Spain.

This, I'm reliably informed, is her third counter and so she'll now get a WTA ranking - and be our youngest ranked player by quite a way.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Matilda has now made the QFs of the 15k in Spain.

Worth pointing out that her experience in the past year is exactly what the ITF were aiming at when they introduced the new system regarding youngsters.

She has used her top 100 junior ranking to get junior exempt places in the MD of adult events, while still unranked in WTA terms.

And then proved herself worthy of them by winning a few matches, thereby getting her adult ranking and bypassing the qualis part altogether.

-- Edited by Coup Droit on Thursday 17th of September 2020 02:08:05 PM

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Matilda has now made the finals of the 15k !!!

(It's true that she beat another junior, to get there, this time the world number one, the extremely highly touted, Victoria Jimenez Kasintseva, born 2005)

An excellent run from our girl - good luck to her in her final! (she'll be playing 28 year-old Yvonne Cavalle-Reimers)

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

And, to cap it of, Matilda takes the ITF 15k title in Spain, beating a woman ranked WTA 525 or so.

Best youngster result we've had for ages (I'm not not counting the exhibition matches)

dodrade · Futures qualifying

Oakland2002 wrote:
But Matilda is an outstanding prospect probably our best since Emma R. Well coached and supported. The reality is the costs of tennis exclude all but the relatively affluent & the pro circuit is so small there is nowhere for hoards of kids to go to earn a wage. How could you justify running lots of 15Ks when so few will evolve to earn a sustainable wage.

The best athletes in the U.K. do not play tennis for a reason. Watched Beckenham FC play football on Saturday. Step 5 first rung of semi pro football 14 leagues 20 teams across UK. All these players have jobs and probably get from expenses to £500 a game.
I would be amazed if there is a kid at Beckenham tennis club (Which is more than decent or indeed the Bromley tennis centre) who could come close to the athleticism of a number of the boys playing, all sorts of backgrounds not the most articulate of post match discussion but pragmatic & totally invested in football other games going on at that level (Vase SF results etc...). There were probably 5-6 lads playing who would be close to sub 11 second 100m runners, Beckenhams centre back was 63 quick, agile. I am sure he will progress.

Tuesday watched a step 4 team (8 leagues of 20 across UK) play all semi pro £50-£500 a week with jobs still v Charlton U23 (so full time), even contest semi pro side could easily have won stronger tactically better (both non league coaches ex top level pros incidentally the non league manager was captain of team Bath that reached the first round proper of the FA cup now deputy head master at a school that educates boys 16-18 in a number of football academies), 2-2 draw, the difference in athleticism was vast, technically superb Charlton better and all a couple of yards faster. 18 yr old Charlton CB already played two seasons of mens football @ step 3 (Met Police) could assuming hes doesnt get injured make a very good living as a pro footballer 63 one of the quickest on the park, skilful & tough as teak. Charltons academy is very good produce a couple of top pros a year.. Jo Gomez played for England on Saturday, Nick Pope was on the bench and Sancho is from round the corner.

Despite COVID both games drew about 100 spectators @ £8 & £10 a head respectively plus bar revenue, burgers clubs probably made a profit. The Deal v Beckenham game a real family affair, Dogs being walked, kids playing non stop on spare grass didnt watch a second.
nice bar with beer garden

I think there is an underestimation of how tough it is to be even a semi professional in other sports and the levels at which they are played. Tennis has plenty of resources and players but very few are interested in the junior game unless they are earning a living from it. Virtually everyone who facilitated the games I went to was a volunteer as were many of the junior coaches who had got the young players going in the game without them many of the boys playing would not have had the resources to engage.

-- Edited by Oakland2002 on Monday 7th of September 2020 11:57:09 AM

I've often wondered why so many top British tennis players are first or second generation immigrants. It it simply that (Wimbledon apart) for most Brits Tennis is way down the sporting pecking order compared to other countries?