The LTA

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

RE: The LTA

The Optimist · ATP qualifying

At the risk of stirring up more argument, being told only certain types of opinions count, I have found the discussion on how juniors should be coached very interesting. Having over many years seen many juniors being coached in many types of environment (mainly in this country), I feel there's a touch of horses for courses. Different coaches have different approaches and some work with some kids and some work with others. Personally, I think all of the kids benefit from coaching which improves their technique. However, I have also always felt that kids in this country do not play enough matches. They are careful about their ratings, they stop taking part in club tennis as they move towards the elite, they always try to avoid a loss which could affect their standing, and eventually matches form a very small part of their on-court time. And although I disagree with Junior that focussing on getting the ball in should be the overriding element in training, I do agree with him that many of our elite juniors are technically wonderful but utterly deficient in matchplay nous. I have also had (very limited) exposure to junior tennis in Spain. Two things struck me. Firstly that, even from the real tots, there was a lot more repetition in coaching which further up the age groups seemed to result in greater consistency than is common in the UK. Secondly that many more matches were played. Every weekend the kids were playing somewhere. In their club against adults, in a junior event, being taken off to sign in for qualies at a pro tournament, or even a friendly against a mate. Now this may be that tournament play is easier to come by in Spain, or it may be that the way matches feed into the rankings system is different, but I think there is a lesson to be taken on board in this country.

junior · Intermediate Club Player

I like that there is a line from Penzance to John O Groats of tennis people in the UK who try and deny the objective of tennis is to hit the ball in the court. Sure there are many ways of doing it (hard, soft whatever) but players fundamentally have to learn to be able to hit the ball in the court first. Then (as they grow and are more biomechanically able to) with pace, spins etc. Only once they are able to hit the ball in the court will they be able to play matches in a competitive manner, not tanking, crying, swearing etc etc. This is why British players flood our land and not a single Spanish player in the history of tennis has ever gone to the UK to train, could be coincidence though

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

junior wrote:
I like that there is a line from Penzance to John O Groats of tennis people in the UK who try and deny the objective of tennis is to hit the ball in the court. Sure there are many ways of doing it (hard, soft whatever) but players fundamentally have to learn to be able to hit the ball in the court first. Then (as they grow and are more biomechanically able to) with pace, spins etc. Only once they are able to hit the ball in the court will they be able to play matches in a competitive manner, not tanking, crying, swearing etc etc. This is why British players flood our land and not a single Spanish player in the history of tennis has ever gone to the UK to train, could be coincidence though

I'll be honest here and say I know little or nothing about tennis coaching. But I did coach a lot of junior cricket in my younger days. And as a general philosophy, it was far easier to coach attacking players to defend than to coach defensive players how to attack.

I would much rather take a player who would hit the ball hard but be a bit reckless and then teach them about shot selection and when to attack or not. But with the players who just pushed the ball back, it was extremely hard to teach them to be more aggressive.

Whether the same is true in tennis, I will let more knowledgeable people discuss.

Elegant Point · Satellite level

One thing I noticed when watching coaching in Spain was that even the younger children ( aged 5- 6) played full court with a yellow ball and seemed to manage just fine - none of the Traffic Light ball system the LTA system uses.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

The Optimist wrote:
At the risk of stirring up more argument, being told only certain types of opinions count, I have found the discussion on how juniors should be coached very interesting. Having over many years seen many juniors being coached in many types of environment (mainly in this country), I feel there's a touch of horses for courses. Different coaches have different approaches and some work with some kids and some work with others. Personally, I think all of the kids benefit from coaching which improves their technique. However, I have also always felt that kids in this country do not play enough matches. They are careful about their ratings, they stop taking part in club tennis as they move towards the elite, they always try to avoid a loss which could affect their standing, and eventually matches form a very small part of their on-court time. And although I disagree with Junior that focussing on getting the ball in should be the overriding element in training, I do agree with him that many of our elite juniors are technically wonderful but utterly deficient in matchplay nous. I have also had (very limited) exposure to junior tennis in Spain. Two things struck me. Firstly that, even from the real tots, there was a lot more repetition in coaching which further up the age groups seemed to result in greater consistency than is common in the UK. Secondly that many more matches were played. Every weekend the kids were playing somewhere. In their club against adults, in a junior event, being taken off to sign in for qualies at a pro tournament, or even a friendly against a mate. Now this may be that tournament play is easier to come by in Spain, or it may be that the way matches feed into the rankings system is different, but I think there is a lesson to be taken on board in this country.

Interesting comments, The O.

The matchplay part is exactly the same in France - I am always amazed at how few matches kids play here too - in France, there's SO many tournaments and team events going on, week in, week out, kids playing kids events, kids playing adults events, team, individual, whatever, just tons of matches.

I don't know about the ranking system in Spain (or in the UK) but in France one change they made which was very successful was that losses no longer gave you negative points. So, if you lose to someone in R1 ranked way below you, that person gets mega points (for beating a better ranked player) but you don't get negative points for losing to a lower guy. (To nuance it, they do give you bonus points if you go through the season without losing to a lower player but it's just a bonus, it's not fundamental).

It tackled the problem of certain players avoiding tournaments because they might lose. So everyone just plays.

junior · Intermediate Club Player

Our ranking system is far from good but less importance is placed on it than in the UK. Some of the flaws here might be when a player comes here they have to start from the absolute bottom and work up (no estimates) so it takes time to get up to good ranking, is difficult for foreigners to be officially recognized in the rankings, and also it is perfectly possible for the top under 14 kids to be top 500 (for example) in Spain because of the points they have attained in their category. It's not decent, however I know and was once destroyed by a guy who was some 700plus places below me in the rankings, the thing was he had beaten Rafa, Andy and Nico Almagro. In the UK ranking is the Bible, I would understand why it doesn't promote anyone to play more than their 7 matches and then sit for months to not risk it to keep their place as number 1 or 2 or whatever in the county and not risk their county cup place or county training. I remember as a kid counting out my matches and scores and arranging "matches" with my friends to help our rankings go up. I only remember when arriving in Spain signing up and playing absolutely everything I possibly could to get my ranking up to decent level

junior · Intermediate Club Player

In other news, on my newsfeed this morning before the AO results (good showing from Karatsev, he's a good guy), Judy Murray has £4.5k face lift

The Optimist · ATP qualifying

junior wrote:
In other news, on my newsfeed this morning before the AO results (good showing from Karatsev, he's a good guy), Judy Murray has £4.5k face lift

Made me smile.......I wasn't quite sure why it was such big news.....even got half a page in The Times!!! Going back to the earlier discussions about Mrs Murray, I have met her briefly on a couple of occasions and she seemed perfectly pleasant. However, she does seem to be the tennis world's marmite person.....some tennis people think she is wonderful and others really don't! As a former national coach for Scotland, I don't see why she shouldn't have been in the running for the Fed Cup job. However, her media profile was initially solely due to her sons' fame and achievements IMO and I find that a little strange. Had the media profile come after her Fed Cup involvement I don't think I would look at it in the same way. However, I applaud her for using that media position to raise the profile of girls tennis (anything which encourages girls into sport gets my vote.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Yes, I've bumped into Judy at several events.

All I can say is she's far less overtly objectionable than some of the LTA coaches/'bigwigs' (no prizes for guessing one of my pet hates!)

What she's like as a coach, a pushy mum, a business person, a spokesperson for the sport, a human being, etc, I really don't know.

But I'm not knocking her for having a facelift

flamingowings · All-time great

Choice quotes from Dan on the LTA/NTC from Daily Mail article: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis/article-9723005/Ahead-Wimbledon-Dan-Evans-reflects-beating-Novak-Djokovic-fighting-drugs-ban.html

He has long since been a convert to the virtues of hard work, and getting extremely fit. While not a routine basher of the Lawn Tennis Association he praises the bubbles at their pre-Wimbledon tournaments as the best of the many he has been confined in he bluntly says they are getting much wrong when it comes to training players.

.....

On the tour the players are working very hard, grinding, running. I struggle with it when I hear around the LTA that its not a running sport. One of the fitness coaches there told me that thats remarkable to hear because trust me, I can tell you from playing at the highest level that it is.

That needs to change if we want more decent players. It seems we are moving away from hard tennis work, with too much emphasis on weights, programmes, lifting, and unfortunately some fitness trainers are not sufficiently from a tennis background.

You only need to look at the number of injuries our players are having. If you are injured thats physical, not unlucky, most of the time. A lot of the time the physios are blamed but the proof is in the pudding there are so many injuries in that place (the National Tennis Centre) its incredible. If you arent working properly, you will break down.

junior · Intermediate Club Player

I like the phrase "the proof is in the pudding". I shall use it from now on.

Unfortunately he says it like its only GB tennis which they focus too much on strength, it's everywhere. Especially the new generation of ball bashers who mentally can't seem to keep it together for 5 set matches, part of that must come from the physical side of things. The only worthwhile thing Petchey said on commentary during the whole French Open was about Djokovic former coach never made him do weights etc, only speed, core and balance (the important things in tennis). However, it's easier to find private trainers who think they can apply the same principles as bodybuilding to tennis, in clubs/academies most focus is what is happening on court over their fitness structure as well so fitness coaches can often get away with it with the usual garbage excuses (too many players, not enough fitness coaches or facilities etc etc)

emmsie69 · Top national player

junior wrote:
I like the phrase "the proof is in the pudding". I shall use it from now on.

Unfortunately he says it like its only GB tennis which they focus too much on strength, it's everywhere. Especially the new generation of ball bashers who mentally can't seem to keep it together for 5 set matches, part of that must come from the physical side of things. The only worthwhile thing Petchey said on commentary during the whole French Open was about Djokovic former coach never made him do weights etc, only speed, core and balance (the important things in tennis). However, it's easier to find private trainers who think they can apply the same principles as bodybuilding to tennis, in clubs/academies most focus is what is happening on court over their fitness structure as well so fitness coaches can often get away with it with the usual garbage excuses (too many players, not enough fitness coaches or facilities etc etc)

It's been obvious with all the injuries, particularly for the women that something is wrong with the training. I think I mentioned it on the womens thread back in Feb/March after yet another retirement.

Elegant Point · Satellite level

flamingowings wrote:
Choice quotes from Dan on the LTA/NTC from Daily Mail article: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis/article-9723005/Ahead-Wimbledon-Dan-Evans-reflects-beating-Novak-Djokovic-fighting-drugs-ban.html
He has long since been a convert to the virtues of hard work, and getting extremely fit. While not a routine basher of the Lawn Tennis Association he praises the bubbles at their pre-Wimbledon tournaments as the best of the many he has been confined in he bluntly says they are getting much wrong when it comes to training players.
.....
On the tour the players are working very hard, grinding, running. I struggle with it when I hear around the LTA that its not a running sport. One of the fitness coaches there told me that thats remarkable to hear because trust me, I can tell you from playing at the highest level that it is.
That needs to change if we want more decent players. It seems we are moving away from hard tennis work, with too much emphasis on weights, programmes, lifting, and unfortunately some fitness trainers are not sufficiently from a tennis background.
You only need to look at the number of injuries our players are having. If you are injured thats physical, not unlucky, most of the time. A lot of the time the physios are blamed but the proof is in the pudding there are so many injuries in that place (the National Tennis Centre) its incredible. If you arent working properly, you will break down.

Agree with the comments about lack/quality of fitness training. By the time many of these players reach their late teens/early 20s they may have been playing for 10-15 years and many of the injuries are over use injuries.

A common one that can see young players out for many months is lower back pain, in the worst cases requiring surgery. There needs to be greater emphasis on injury prevention - weight training may exacerbate some conditions and strength training in adolescents is still controversial.

https://www.aspetar.com/journal/viewarticle.aspx?id=191#.YNmy7i14X4A

The Optimist · ATP qualifying

Having seen tennis programs at the various performance centres and clubs with large junior sections (not Scotland) over many years, I would say the approach to fitness training varies hugely. Some venues definitely treat it more seriously than others. IMO (and I am not a qualified fitness trainer), many of the fitness programs do not seem particularly tennis related, although I am sure the participants do build fitness and strength. A lot put the focus very much on strength but ignore cardio completely. This is fine if a high proportion of the tennis sessions are high-tempo endurance and cardio based but, to me, is a problem if the tennis sessions are predominantly technically based (as is often the case in the UK for the better players).

I also feel growing athletes are not given help in building schedules which balance activity with a proper amount of rest for recovery. Sporty kids can be like the Duracell bunny and just want to keep going, but constant repetitive activity can damage growing bodies, with the problems sometimes not showing until later on. I think this is heightened due to the tendency for elite young tennis players to leave school early. This tends to remove options to sometimes play other sports which use different muscles and skills and thus reduce the injuries caused by constant repetition of the same movements. And (again IMO), playing other sports is a great way for the younger kids to improve general fitness in a fun and possible more age appropriate way than gym work.

I once attended a talk given by the WTA on injuries in women's tennis. It seems that wrist injuries are the most frequent. And since that talk I wince every time I see a skinny 12yo wielding a heavy full size racquet doing drill after drill.

One other point I think our youngsters should bear in mind if they are aiming for an injury free career is that many sports are now recommending regular yoga, pilates or 'active stretching' sessions for that purpose. I haven't seen much evidence of this being recommended to young tennis players.