Boys & Girls: Nazmi Bari Cup, Turkey - Grade 4 (Week 20)

blob · All-time great

RE: Boys & Girls: Nazmi Bari Cup, Turkey - Grade 4 (Week 20)

murray_2k9 · Challenger qualifying

I mentioned in the ''Girls: 30° Torneo Internazionale U18'' that I felt TennisKnowHow is bitter about about juniors / the way the system works, which he/she vehemently denied. On the basis of this thread, something doesnt seem to add up. Why such unnecessary hostility?!

You may choose to ignore junior rankings but Kuzmova is ranked 100 places higher than the second highest ranked junior Mirabelle played (Cheng) and the difference in class that the ranking suggests seems clearly reflected in the scoreline.

I always look forward to DavidC's updates which are fair, balanced and reasoned and was certainly no different in this thread. All just a bit odd really. Thanks to DavidC anyway.

indiana · Tennis legend

May I add my thanks for all the continued service and information about junior tennis DavidC has given over the years.

TennisKnowHow, I am akways pleased to see new members with good knowledge and opinions on the game and we often have good debates. But I really question why you felt the need to put your points in such an aggressive tone and make quite so much of certain phraseology.

We appear to have quite a few new folk with err attitude ( no problem in itself ) of late. Maybe some could spend a little more time getting a feel of the place and some of the members before llaunching in too forcefully or jumping to conclusions. Certainly one or two lately, not meaning TennisKnowHow, have seriously misjudged others in discussion / debate partly through a certain unfamiliarity with this place.

TennisKnowHow, I look forward to the forum benefitting in a positive way from your good knowledge of both the junior and senior scene.

indiana · Tennis legend

murray, where I have previously agreed with TennisKnowHow is that much of the junior rankings have to be looked at with a large pinch of salt. They mix up so many ages, speeds of development, access, number of tournaments played etc etc that judging players just on comparative junior rankings is fraught with jeopardy. DavidC for instance will often more refer to other tournament success and / or players beaten.

A problem before though was again that to my mind TennisKnowHow challenged overaggresively ( in I think the thread you refer to ) certain general phraseology on rankings rather than just make some very reasonable points re junior rankings.

SMC1809 · All-time great

IF, I've been wondering where you've been. Don't be a stranger for too long, you have been missed.

steven · Tennis legend

indiana wrote:
We appear to have quite a few new folk with err attitude ( no problem in itself ) of late. Maybe some could spend a little more time getting a feel of the place and some of the members before llaunching in too forcefully or jumping to conclusions. Certainly one or two lately, not meaning TennisKnowHow, have seriously misjudged others in discussion / debate partly through a certain unfamiliarity with this place.

On most (not all) other forums I've seen, this tends to be the rule rather than the exception, so I guess it had to happen here sometime, though in GB tennis terms, those with chips on their shoulders about junior tennis (especially girls' junior tennis) have tended to gravitate towards another forum - luckily for us if perhaps not so lucky for the many decent people there.

I imagine some people seeing some of the regulars supporting David here are thinking "closed shop," "elitist," bla bla bla. All rubbish, in my opinion, and anyway, all of us were new once apart from a very few who must have been here from the start.

In my experience, it is never a good idea to go into a new environment with all guns blazing and make snap judgements about people with next to no evidence. I have always believed that if you start a new job, a new school, move in with someone or a move to a new country ... or yes, even start posting on a new forum, it's always a good idea to get a feel for the place and how things are done before telling everyone they're wrong.

That doesn't mean you have to think the way things are done is right (far from it!), but there might be a reason for things being done the way they are. If/when you become sure there isn't a good reason, you're in a much stronger position to influence changes if you are already established and have earned some respect.

Anyway, this seems like a good opportunity to thank people here for making this such a constructive and friendly place for the vast majority of the time. There are plenty of debates on here and plenty of strong characters and views (which is exactly how it should be) but also a lot of respect for each other's views (including a willingness to admit we might be wrong) and a commitment to sharing info that often goes well above and beyond the call of duty.

TennisKnowHow · Improver

murray_2k9 wrote:
I mentioned in the ''Girls: 30° Torneo Internazionale U18'' that I felt TennisKnowHow is bitter about about juniors / the way the system works, which he/she vehemently denied. On the basis of this thread, something doesnt seem to add up. Why such unnecessary hostility?!

You may choose to ignore junior rankings but Kuzmova is ranked 100 places higher than the second highest ranked junior Mirabelle played (Cheng) and the difference in class that the ranking suggests seems clearly reflected in the scoreline.

I always look forward to DavidC's updates which are fair, balanced and reasoned and was certainly no different in this thread. All just a bit odd really. Thanks to DavidC anyway.

Thanks to all. If I come across as being aggressive, it is not intentional and absolutely nothing personal.

I am not bitter about juniors. There is just too much focus for some in juniors on irrelevance. Development of a sustainable game for the long term is what counts at junior stage (that is if the player intends to become a pro in top 100). Once again, ranking/seeding/rating etc. taken alone are irrelevant.

Mirabelle is a good example - all I knew about her as a GB player was when she was mentioned here last week in previous tournament in Turkey and out of curiosity looked for further tournament info in addition to those mentioned here.

With ITF ranking over 600, she successfully qualified for main draw three weeks in succession in three top draw tournaments: two Grade 2s and one Grade 1. Moreover, these were tournaments in France for that matter with very strong field (not in Oman or Bermuda, etc.). In Istre Grade 2 main draw (with ranking over 600), she beat a player ranked under 200 (7-6(6), 6-0) in main draw and had close loss against top seed ranked under 50 6-2, 7-6(5). In Beaulieu Grade 1, she did even better beating player ranked 149 in main draw 2^nd round quite comfortably (6-4, 6-1) and in 3^rd round had very close loss to 2^nd seed ranked 22 (7-6(5), 7-5).

Now, if I was to go by ranking alone, this shouldnt really be possible, especially if you look at her performance history before those tournaments. Huge gap in ranking in the 400s yet could stand her ground against supposedly top juniors. What this suggests to me is that she is likely to be a very aggressive player who when her game is on song can beat anyone. And they can also lose against anyone when not on song. Like with most aggressive players (especially in the juniors) who dictate play, the outcome of their matches usually has nothing to do with their opponent but more to do with their unforced error count compared to winners. It takes a long time to develop an aggressive game to a level of consistency that brings results. So its not surprising that such players usually burst into the scene from nowhere. She is an intriguing prospect and I would like to see her in action one day.

Based on recent tournament info gleaned, I am not surprised by her performance in Turkey in past two weeks. It says more about her level rather than the level of her opponents.

LordBrownof · Futures level

I don't think anyone is questioning your analysis, just the way you go about expressing it.

DavidC · Tennis legend

Thanks very much for the appreciative messages. I have followed international junior tennis closely for a number of years and try to offer a bit of colour where I have knowledge or uncover results/reports which appear to have relevance, or have watched the player (though I am well aware of the danger of reading too much into individual results or ranking in isolation)

Kuzmova has been on my radar for the last year or so, playing similar events to Maia, Jazzi and Gabi with considerable success (she ended the year ranked 3 in Tennis Europe under 14). Maia, Jazzi and Gabi have all experienced success in some G4 events, indicating that Victoria can be expected to be a strong competitor as well at this level (she has reached the final and retired from a semifinal in recent G4s). Hence the conclusion that Mirabelle's result is a cause for encouragement.

TennisKnowHow's analysis of Mirabelle chimes with comments which have been made in the other recent Turkish and French threads, aided by Coup Droit's knowledge of the French junior scene, and her rapid development in results terms this year may well be because of the nature of her game. She is indeed an intriguing prospect who will be very interesting to watch.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

DavidC, having just walked in the door and logged on, I was rather shocked at the response to your original informative and perfectly 'normal' post.

Your reply above does you credit.

TennisKnowHow may possibly be right in his/her analysis of the match. It is true, as mentioned before, that Mirabelle plays an athletic, aggressive game and is trying to become even more offensive (tennis-wise!).

But then again, Tennis Know How paints only one possible scenario. You are actually in a better position to judge because you know the game of Kuzmova. You also know more about Mirabelle than TKH who, by his/her own admission, hadn't even heard of Mirabelle until 2 weeks ago.
I know nothing about the Slovakian. Maybe Kuzomva plays an even more aggressive game than Njoze; maybe Mirabelle made hardly any unforced errors but Kuzomova was hitting clean winners before Mirabelle even had a chance.
I do not know, I was not there and, as I said, I don't know the Slovakian, although I have at least seen Mirabelle play.
But I'm absolutely A1 sure that Kuzmova's coach certainly did not believe that the outcome of the match had 'nothing to do with the play of' his player and was only dictated by Mirabelle's unforced error/winner rate, as quoted from TKH.

On a more factual, possible helpful basis, I do know that Mirabelle is currently ranked '0' in France. This is a proper ranking i.e. based on a full results sheet (i.e. not an administrative ranking that most other UK girls have). It is very good but not exceptionally high for a 1997. She will, however, certainly go up several slots this year as she's only lost 3 matches (now 4) and has a fair number of 'significant victories'.

However, the interesting thing is that she was ranked '0' last year too, and lost nearly all her matches which is obviously why she didn't go up from 2012 to 2013, which is unusual. But last year she was playing for a different club (the same one she had been playing for, seemingly successfully, for at least 3 years previously).
From what I can make out, things had been going well and then last year it must have been a real problem year and it all went wrong. She then changed club (and possible academy) as of September and has now taken off flying. It would explain why her junior ranking is artificially low.

new to it · Social player

well, you all have your knickers in a twist. maybe mirabelle has improved. rankings mean nothing if you improve!! look at sara sorribes tormo.spanish 96.
where exactly is mirabelle training?

Mervatron · Masters Series Champion

Well this 'argument'seems to have come from nowhere.

I agree with all sentimetns made regarding DavidC.

For all who have been following this forum for some time it's obvious that waht he was saying in his post that Mirabelle's SF loss was not a shock as her opponent was a clear step up in class to everyone else she had met to that point. It is not an attack on Mirabelle. I don't get where the agro came from?