Doping Again !

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

RE: Doping Again !

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

sliced backhand wrote:
JonH comes home wrote:
Not looking good for her. Once you can try and explain, a second offence becomes harder.

The fact they will go after someone like Halep is what makes me believe that accusations against others elsewhere on this board, have little merit. Youll get caught eventually
Yes point taken but much as we like Simona she is not a huge name to the non-Romanian public. Finding RN and ND guilty would be very different matter!

Indeed. But RN and ND have been tested and are negative. Simona has tested postive.

And you can't say 'well, yes, but that's what the ITF want us to believe', because that's just a conspiracy theory, with no backing.

And, after all, the authorities did not hush up Maria Sharapova's meldonium, and there's no bigger name than Maria.

emmsie69 · ATP level

Coup Droit wrote:
sliced backhand wrote:
JonH comes home wrote:
Not looking good for her. Once you can try and explain, a second offence becomes harder.

The fact they will go after someone like Halep is what makes me believe that accusations against others elsewhere on this board, have little merit. Youll get caught eventually
Yes point taken but much as we like Simona she is not a huge name to the non-Romanian public. Finding RN and ND guilty would be very different matter!
Indeed. But RN and ND have been tested and are negative. Simona has tested postive.
And you can't say 'well, yes, but that's what the ITF want us to believe', because that's just a conspiracy theory, with no backing.
And, after all, the authorities did not hush up Maria Sharapova's meldonium, and there's no bigger name than Maria.

The cynical me questions top Women and Doubles players are caught but not top Men. Are the Men clean or better protected because that's where the money is?

ETA or more likely to live in places where testing is limited

-- Edited by emmsie69 on Saturday 20th of May 2023 05:21:57 AM

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

emmsie69 wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
sliced backhand wrote:
JonH comes home wrote:
Not looking good for her. Once you can try and explain, a second offence becomes harder.

The fact they will go after someone like Halep is what makes me believe that accusations against others elsewhere on this board, have little merit. Youll get caught eventually
Yes point taken but much as we like Simona she is not a huge name to the non-Romanian public. Finding RN and ND guilty would be very different matter!
Indeed. But RN and ND have been tested and are negative. Simona has tested postive.
And you can't say 'well, yes, but that's what the ITF want us to believe', because that's just a conspiracy theory, with no backing.
And, after all, the authorities did not hush up Maria Sharapova's meldonium, and there's no bigger name than Maria.
The cynical me questions top Women and Doubles players are caught but not top Men. Are the Men clean or better protected because that's where the money is?
ETA or more likely to live in places where testing is limited

Yes, I don't rule things like that out either

But it's also interesting that the women did not test positive for anabolic steroids (which - from what I understand - is the allegation against Rafa)

Maybe the steroids testing is worse? Less sensitive?

Maybe steroids aren't actually used? By either sex. And men don't use letrozole or whatever.

I also think it's very likely that far more players use drugs (and bet, and fix matches, and all that) in the lower echelons of tennis. Financially, the risk reward makes far more sense

We used to put up young Argentinian players (of about ITF qualis, British Tour sort of level, age 18-21, say) who were touring Europe. One guy told us that nearly all the guys of his cohort doped. But that the two higher ranked ones in his club had stopped.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Coup Droit wrote:
emmsie69 wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
sliced backhand wrote:
JonH comes home wrote:
Not looking good for her. Once you can try and explain, a second offence becomes harder.

The fact they will go after someone like Halep is what makes me believe that accusations against others elsewhere on this board, have little merit. Youll get caught eventually
Yes point taken but much as we like Simona she is not a huge name to the non-Romanian public. Finding RN and ND guilty would be very different matter!
Indeed. But RN and ND have been tested and are negative. Simona has tested postive.
And you can't say 'well, yes, but that's what the ITF want us to believe', because that's just a conspiracy theory, with no backing.
And, after all, the authorities did not hush up Maria Sharapova's meldonium, and there's no bigger name than Maria.
The cynical me questions top Women and Doubles players are caught but not top Men. Are the Men clean or better protected because that's where the money is?
ETA or more likely to live in places where testing is limited

Yes, I don't rule things like that out either
But it's also interesting that the women did not test positive for anabolic steroids (which - from what I understand - is the allegation against Rafa)
Maybe the steroids testing is worse? Less sensitive?
Maybe steroids aren't actually used? By either sex. And men don't use letrozole or whatever.
I also think it's very likely that far more players use drugs (and bet, and fix matches, and all that) in the lower echelons of tennis. Financially, the risk reward makes far more sense
We used to put up young Argentinian players (of about ITF qualis, British Tour sort of level, age 18-21, say) who were touring Europe. One guy told us that nearly all the guys of his cohort doped. But that the two higher ranked ones in his club had stopped.

Around , what 15 years ago, a host of top Argentinians got done for doping , I need to check names but all top 50 players , top 100 and decent names. Italians also have been caught in numbers historically. The Argentinians also got caught at lower levels for match fixing. of course all sports have issues - a host of Chinese players, some v highly ranked , are suspended From snooker for alleged match fixing

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Yes, as said, I know a lot about Argentinian figures and what went on there (and in some other South American countries too)

Heard it all from the horse's mouth, so to speak

ADD: which is not to make a comparative comment about other nationalities - we only put up South American players so that's all I can talk about for non-French, non-Brits.

-- Edited by Coup Droit on Saturday 20th of May 2023 06:57:48 AM

Oakland2002 · All-time great

Halep is a relatively short player whose game is based on athleticism effectively an endurance athlete. There is a lot to gain financial by doping and not getting caught, it is phenomenally difficult to regulate but as a fan essentially one wants to see the quality of the tennis as the determine the winner of any game. I do like the concept of biological passports as regardless of what has been taken it gives a continuous personalised picture of parameters that can be compared with what is an acceptable normal range and acceptable fluctuation step outside that and you are talking real outliers not only from society in general but in a very highly trained group. In reality you just shouldnt be able to play. Not a great comparison but a bit like weights in boxing if you are too heavy the fight is off.

Elegant Point · Satellite level

From a quick flick through the literature it would seem that more tennis players have been caught using illicit substances (cocaine, metamphetamines, marajuana) than PEDs. Little has been done to study the potential advantages that PEDs give a tennis player, the effect of placebo or the harm that drugs do to a players body (for instance does Nadal have really small testicles ? wink ).

Some points of interest:
Studies repeatedly reported that athletes have a high level of trust in their coaches regarding nutritional supplementation and doping (Sundgot-Borgen et al., 2003; Torres-McGehee et al., 2012).

Males are more susceptible to potential doping behavior than females. In general, such findings are expected since it is known that female athletes are less oriented to substance misuse (including doping) than their male peers (Irving et al., 2002; Lorente et al., 2005), and differences of this kind have recently also been reported for positive doping-findings in tennis (Maquirriain, 2010).

According to a confidential survey by ESPN this year of 31 professional tennis players, 65 percent who answered claim the sport doesn't drug test enough and say they personally know a player who has used PEDs. Yet 71 percent also estimated that less than 10 percent of players have benefited from PEDs, a widely held estimate throughout sports, according to anti-doping experts.

Forty-six players (aged 26.04 ± 3.48 years) committed 47 doping offences in a 14-year period with an average ineligibility time of 11.13 ± 9.90 months. Ranking position at sanction date averaged 409.53 ± 437.53 (median 266); the highest career position averaged 201.12 ± 293.96 (median 83) and the highest career position after doping violation was 350.85 ± 441.38 (median 156).
Elite players committed less doping offences than players beyond the 100° ranking position (29.78 and 70.21 %, respectively; p < 0.01). Most players (72.34 %) reached their career highest position before the doping sanction (p = 0.01). The average time to retirement was 35.76 ± 31.03 months, while 12 % did not return to professional tennis competition after the doping offence. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s40064-016-2765-5

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338936953_Doping_in_tennis_where_we_are_and_where_we_should_be_going

https://www.espn.co.uk/espn/otl/story/_/id/17693288/tennis-pristine-image-performance-enhancing-drugs-which-no-accident

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

like many of us, I still dont understand why there is no news or progress in Tara's case

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/65680095

She has been out for almost 12 months now and no news as to what happened or what will happen

emmsie69 · ATP level

Wasn't really sure where to put this but there is a link to doping www.youtube.com/watch

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Halep's case went before the tribunal on Wednesday and Thursday.

www.prosport.ro/alte-sporturi/schimbarea-radicala-pe-care-avocatii-simonei-halep-bogdan-c-stoica-si-howard-jacobs-au-adoptat-o-in-motivatia-procedurala-a-justificarii-utilizarii-neintentionate-a-suplimentelor-nutritive-contamin-19688957

Contaminated nutritional supplements.....maybe....

Perhaps taken over a long period - hence the irregular ABP

Not looking good

womenstennisblog.com/2023/05/28/jelena-dokic-on-simona-halep-doping/

emmsie69 · ATP level

Jenson Brooksby provisionally suspended after missing 3 drug tests within a 1 year period

Madadman · Top national player

twitter.com/mikaelymer/status/1681220636495036416

Mikael Ymer suspended for 18 months after missing 3 tests in a 12 month period. Although originally cleared it seems it was taken to CAS by the ITF/doping and now suspended.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

It's difficult to feel much sympathy for Mikael

He disputes the third missed test but not the first two - so why miss the first two, Mikael? And if you did, then wouldn't you be ULTRA careful not to miss a third?

I don't know about the appeal basis but, in a sport where drug testing is of key importance, and that is known, wouldn't you and your team be really vigilant? After all, he's not a kid, he's not a really lowly ranked guy....

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

that is a big blow for Swedish tennis. Ymer was their leading light. Seems these tennis players need to get a bit smarter on process here, him and Brooksby in short order for the same careless offence.