Week 19 - ATP Masters 1000 - Madrid

indiana · Tennis legend

RE: Week 19 - ATP Masters 1000 - Madrid

LadyTigress · County player

I will make clear now, then - the implication that I don't recognise the real improvement that Andy has made in Rome and Madrid is unfounded. I certainly did not state such, nor do I believe such. No matter what mental improvements he's made, that won't be recognised or rewarded by the computer unless it brings the results - that's a statement of fact no matter how personally positive I feel about Andy's recent improvements in form and mental state. He's also a long way from being back to his usual standard - i.e. where we've come to expect him to be given his form and achievements from July 2008 - January 2010. He can do much better on clay, and he can defeat the players who've been defeating him recently, he's just not back up to those standards of play yet. Who can say what the future may hold. Some players lose form and struggle to regain it and never do achieve the heights that they once reached - others do. There are many, many of examples of both throughout the Tour. I intend to stick by Andy if he does go down the rankings. Others won't, but then, their support is not worth having if they're for the ranking instead of the man or woman.

indiana · Tennis legend

Apologies, Lady T , I do recognise that you didn't say anything re Andy not having really improved in his last 2 tournaments.

I do detect though you that you seem still much more worried as to how close he is to be being back to his best than I am, and perhaps rather more concerned as to how the rest of his year will go.

To me, he has put in some hard word and practice, which has been a great part in the past of getting him up to the high echelons of the rankings. Whatever the reasons for him not putting in that time in the previous months since the Austrailan Open that lack of training I'm sure had a big effect combined maybe with ( or perhaps as a result of ) some loss of focus.

I find the performances in Rome and even more so Madrid very encouraging. Ferrer is a very good clay courter normally, and moreso it appears, in fact he has said so himself, that he is having the best clay court season of his career. You say that Andy can do much better on clay. Although I have always thought he has more potential on that surface than even maybe he himself thinks, he does not relative to other surfaces have a great clay court record although it was improved last year. I think his victory vs Davydenko in the Monte Carlo QF last year still represents his only clay court victory against another top 10er. To my mind, I doubt he has ever has played much better on clay than he was playing generally in Madrid.

You say that some players lose form and struggle to regain it and never do achieve the heights they once gained, again to me indicating that you do not share my view that Andy pretty much has regained most of his form.

Of course the next few months will tell us much more and whether it is just a temporary renaissance. He does seem to me largely through hard work refound his game. I myself am not really worried that he is not closing into his best again and will indeed get right back to it in time, though I maybe have some concern that yes, he had a week or so of really hard work and practice but may still be short of miles on the track and time in the gym and that could catch up with him a bit in the coming months. A liitle hard work has done a lot, but he may be still short there, most particularly in endurance work. He reportedly looked very tired at the end of the Madrid Ferrer match and that would not be too surprsing, though of course sometimes dfficult to tell with Andy given he can sometimes look tired at the start of a match !

I most certainly do not see any plunge down the rankings. Yes, he has a lot to defend in the rest of the year. If he can defend it though, all things being equal, he maintains his position in the top 4. I would not anticipate him overall falling outside the top 6 this year.

Then with proper dedicated training blocks I would anticipate Andy coming right back to his best next year.

Maybe I am being overoptimistic but from what I see and hear recently I think most of our worst fears will not come true, and I was I must admit very worried for a time myself. He has certainly not lost his abilities, retain his focus and things should be good smile

clayfan · Lower Club Player

I wish I could share Indiana's optimism. For me Andy is too dependant on how his opponent plays. Giving his opponents a variety of difficult balls and hoping they make mistakes is a dangerous one. If the opponent plays a blinder, there is little Andy can do. And Ferrer has been playing blinders. Nevertheless Federer still managed to get the better of him. Andy did not.

Andy has admitted he was not paying too much attention to the minor tournaments, saving energy waiting for the more important ones. When they came along he was not match fit. If Indiana is right and he has realised he must maintain a certain level in every tournament, and undertaken the training neccessary, he still faces the problems inherit with his game.

Andy often plays in patches. Runs of games for him and then against him. His first serves are overcooked. Aces or faults. He fears introducing pace into a rally when his game involves taking off the pace and varying it during a rally. Hence a very poor first serve percentage. He has to play much more tennis on his own serve. Andy must be at his best for most of the match. If he dips even a little he loses games. If he cannot even attain his best level at all, he loses matches. If his opponent plays a blinder, he loses matches. I feel this is too fragile to win a grand slam. His current dip in form shows up how difficult it is to play his style of play at a high level indefinately. Anyone in the top 30 could conceivably beat him at the moment.

I hope this is not the case and he does pick up and starts his winning ways again. But I am fearful he will slip quite a way back this year.

indiana · Tennis legend

We shall see, it will all play out over time.

A lot of what you say, clayfan, is true about Andy re such as he can seem dependant on how other players play at times, and a player on song can sweep him aside sometimes, occasionally when Andy has shown a strange inability to change tactics. But it pretty much always has been thus and he has scaled the heights of World No 2 and twice Grand Slam finalist with these supposed inherit problems in his game, which I accept many see. Reading your second last paragraph one might wonder how he ever got near there, seems he must have a lot to compensate for such liabilities

So, I just don't see why they in themselves should suddenly produce some big fall. Fitness and focus in tune and I logically can't really see why he shouldn't be back around where he was. Indeed maybe if he could change some aspects of his play and sort out some of his service issues longer term even improvement should be possible.

The real question that would participate a fall is not how he plays but if he has lost some of what he had to a serious degree, eg. focus, and here although very encouraged lately, I would still have some worries going forward. And as I said before until he has a really big training block, his fitness for all the matches that I would hope he will be playing over the next few months would be a bit of a worry to me.

I still maintain his Madrid form was very good. I certainly won't lose sleep over Federer beating Ferrer in 3 sets after Ferrer had beaten Andy, a Ferrer who had a long match with Andy late into the night though I actually doubt that had as much effect as someone suggested it might. Federer himself has lost a very competitive final with Nadal 6 - 4 7 - 6 with only one point difference in overall points.

So to me Andy has really found form again. Will he maintain it, here as I said, I have a few more doubts re such as his longer term fitness, but my guess is in general having got back to form he will be pretty competitive the rest of the year.

clayfan · Lower Club Player

We have been used to Andy achieving a high standard of tennis and a high ranking.They say it is easier to climb the rankings than stay there. Apart from Fed and Rafa the other guys have spells where they fall back a bit only to rise again, possibly. We have to expect it may not be easy for Andy to stay in the top 10.

What worries me is the enormous number of points he has to come off in the next couple of months. Last year he reached the quarters at the French, won Queens Club and got into the Wimbledon semis. He will be going some to match that great run.

The cause for optimism is that Andy has found ways to improve in the past and hopefully he has come through this years little blip. But it will be tough.

SMC1809 · All-time great

Even without those points, he'll still be top 10. Queens was worth only 250, and RG 360, and we can expect Andy to replace a chunk of those at least.

clayfan · Lower Club Player

Welcome news. He does have a bit of a cushion before any big plunge.

philwrig · Hall of fame

I just don't see the reasons for being overlyworried. None of the other players around him in the rankings are in great form at the moment either. He has never had good results on clay. He is targetting the grand slams now and is playing alot better than 4 weeks ago. I expect him to have a solid RG and also another great Wimbledon. The upside with playing fewer matches during the spring is he'll be fresher come US open time when he has only a fourth round to defend.

-- Edited by philwrig on Monday 17th of May 2010 03:52:43 PM

LadyTigress · County player

It just doesn't feel quite right... it bugs me. Probably because I remember all too well going through similar problems and being at a loss to explain it and with no clue how to pick myself up again. This is so uncharacteristic of Andy. Dammit, Andy Murray just does not do "wishy washy". He's solid as a rock. He's created a level that we've all come to expect, since June 2008. We're used to feeling pretty secure about knowing who he'll beat, who's a challenge, how far he'll go in tourneys, what level of play we can expect from him. I didn't have one whit of doubt in my mind that he was on his way up. He'd got to this level and you knew that even though Fed and Rafa and Nole were higher ranked, he could beat them any day. Two Slam finals... you thought, "he's learning from this... it'll come soon, he'll get better and better and achieve even greater highs... no doubt he has the potential to do it".

I don't think anybody, least of all Andy, fully understands why his form has just plunged off a cliff so suddenly. That's the most frustrating thing about this kind of loss of form. (I know people will say Kim, but I won't go into that now, but from experience I would tend to think that firstly that did not pan out nearly as badly as the media report and secondly that its effect on your sport is not what you might expect, i.e. a degenration out of sheer depression, but quite another).

It's not as bad as it was, that's for sure, believe me I am thrilled at his at least partial recovery and improvements of late, but back to his old self? I don't anticipate a plunge down the rankings, just to clarify, I don't think things are that bad, but I was thinking of other players who have fallen from heights, and also of the point that if others around Andy continue to improve themselves (which is very much being fuelled in today's game where the depth is so high) then it would be more a matter of them surpassing Andy.

Personally I'm taking it week by week, no expectations, and firmly believe Andy is more than capable of recovering from this. Anything can happen in tennis though, so who knows what on earth will be the outcome.

EDIT: I agree with clayfan about the inherent flaws in Andy's game, however I think something else was the short term trigger for this sudden loss of form. I also agree that right now, I do feel like anyone in the top 30 could beat Andy. So I do feel he is not at his best - at his best, despite those flaws in his game, he was absolutely dominant and consistent, no one could touch him hardly. Philwrig also makes a good point - in the top 10 we've got Davydenko, Delpo and Roddick all laid off with injuries and illnesses, meanwhile Djokovic is on another rollercoaster ride, Fed is having a bit of a dip of his own, and Rafa is recovering from what has actually been a big hit to his season last year. However, I do feel that all that is just sheer twist of fortune that has all that happening to the other players whilst Andy is having these issues, and it could very easily have been a different story. Also, the injuries, recoveries and dips of the other players will not last forever, so Andy needs to get his act together!

indiana wrote:

Apologies, Lady T , I do recognise that you didn't say anything re Andy not having really improved in his last 2 tournaments.

I do detect though you that you seem still much more worried as to how close he is to be being back to his best than I am, and perhaps rather more concerned as to how the rest of his year will go.

To me, he has put in some hard word and practice, which has been a great part in the past of getting him up to the high echelons of the rankings. Whatever the reasons for him not putting in that time in the previous months since the Austrailan Open that lack of training I'm sure had a big effect combined maybe with ( or perhaps as a result of ) some loss of focus.

I find the performances in Rome and even more so Madrid very encouraging. Ferrer is a very good clay courter normally, and moreso it appears, in fact he has said so himself, that he is having the best clay court season of his career. You say that Andy can do much better on clay. Although I have always thought he has more potential on that surface than even maybe he himself thinks, he does not relative to other surfaces have a great clay court record although it was improved last year. I think his victory vs Davydenko in the Monte Carlo QF last year still represents his only clay court victory against another top 10er. To my mind, I doubt he has ever has played much better on clay than he was playing generally in Madrid.

You say that some players lose form and struggle to regain it and never do achieve the heights they once gained, again to me indicating that you do not share my view that Andy pretty much has regained most of his form.

Of course the next few months will tell us much more and whether it is just a temporary renaissance. He does seem to me largely through hard work refound his game. I myself am not really worried that he is not closing into his best again and will indeed get right back to it in time, though I maybe have some concern that yes, he had a week or so of really hard work and practice but may still be short of miles on the track and time in the gym and that could catch up with him a bit in the coming months. A liitle hard work has done a lot, but he may be still short there, most particularly in endurance work. He reportedly looked very tired at the end of the Madrid Ferrer match and that would not be too surprsing, though of course sometimes dfficult to tell with Andy given he can sometimes look tired at the start of a match !

I most certainly do not see any plunge down the rankings. Yes, he has a lot to defend in the rest of the year. If he can defend it though, all things being equal, he maintains his position in the top 4. I would not anticipate him overall falling outside the top 6 this year.

Then with proper dedicated training blocks I would anticipate Andy coming right back to his best next year.

Maybe I am being overoptimistic but from what I see and hear recently I think most of our worst fears will not come true, and I was I must admit very worried for a time myself. He has certainly not lost his abilities, retain his focus and things should be good

-- Edited by LadyTigress on Monday 17th of May 2010 11:20:57 PM

indiana · Tennis legend

We maybe don't fully understand why Andy apparently lost focus and did less training, but as I have indicated I certainly do think that it is that lack of training that is very largely to do with his poor time. In many areas of life what you get out is proportional to what you put in.

As I mentioned in the Rome thread, Andy himself said that prior to the Rome Masters was the first training week he had done since December. He hit weights, did repetive drills and practised a lot.

Lady T, you say that you don't think anyone, least of all Andy, fully understands why his form has just suddenly plunged off a cliff so suddenly. Do you not feel like me that his previous lack of training has had a very large part here ? I get the impression Andy himself feels this as well. As I think everyone is agreed, to a greater or lesser extent, his form certainly improved in Rome and Madrid.

I am very pleased to read in the Grauniad today :

"While Federer and Nadal were busy slugging it out, Murray, beaten here by the Spaniard David Ferrer on Friday night was back in London, getting straight back into the gym in search of any edge he can find that might help him when he heads to Paris.

"I''ll be getting fitter, definitely," Murray said. "I'll try and have some sessions because it's good for your concentration. If you can practice for two or three hours and then go to the gym you can take two sets. To play five sets is going to be a tough one. So I need to make sure I'm ready for that"."

While good to read, I think this also shows Andy is a little concerned that he is still undertrained from the many months he didn't put in sessions. But hopefully this is all helping as long as he now doesn't go mad with evident renewed enthusiasm and overcook it

That is the main message I have been trying to put across, maybe at times my tendency to ramble on at too much length obscuring that main message

That I am so much less concerned than others re Andy because I really do think it has very largely been a focus / training issue.

Yes, many folk do suddenly fall from the heights for no apparent reason, and Andy's previous steady rise upwards was actually remarkably consistent, we may have had a moan or two but try say supporting certain GEMs for not knowing what you've got

Now he has had a real drop off in form, but I really don't think it is as mysterious or worrying as some people seem to.

Andy certainly did need to get his act together, and from where I'm looking. he's doing so.

-- Edited by indiana on Tuesday 18th of May 2010 12:45:39 AM

LadyTigress · County player

Yes, but the question is WHY did his training tail off? That's what I mean when I say it's a bit of a mystery. He must've known that not-training would be a foolish idea.

*groan* I support players far more inconsistent, lower ranked, and inexplicable than Andy, don't worry about that! You know, I think the majority of tennis supporters are so used to supporting Fed, Rafa, and others at the top of the game that they just support the rank instead of the person! Seen, astonished, that when things go wrong they throw a wobbly, get angry with the player, then march off and abandon supporting them in disgust. Like, geez, have they tried supporting anyone outside the top 5? Have they tried supporting the Baghdatis' of this world?! They have no idea... and no idea of what true support means.

confuse

Did... I... Did I just have a dream last night that Rafa announced to the world press that he'd been in love with Ms Warminger, my primary school teacher, since the age of 8? I did. What the... confuse

I only just woke up so I had forgotten that and it only just came back to me... wtf kind of a messed up dream was that?! confuse

Riiiiight...

indiana · Tennis legend

No dream. I saw it on the news this morning, there was Rafa and his dear Warminger. It was sweet how he declared to the world that he hoped too many girls wouldn't be too disappointed that he was now off the singles markert. But really Ms Warminger had always been the one for him.

With a little bit more work on her backhand, Rafa hopes he may get a WC for a Nadal / Warminger mixed doubles pair at Wimbledon. He thinks being together like that will trully seal their love and bond for life

Madeline · Admin:Moderator + Tennis Legend

I haven't much time for tennis boards at the moment, tied up with family affairs, but I seem to remember reading on MTF very recently a resurrected thread from 2002 bemoaning Federer's disastrous drop in form - I think three first round losses in a row? I haven't time to go back and check. But while reading it, I couldn't help thinking how much it paralleled Andy's recent problems. Maybe Andy will bounce back like Roger did, maybe he won't. It will be interesting.

LadyTigress · County player

indiana wrote:

No dream. I saw it on the news this morning, there was Rafa and his dear Warminger. It was sweet how he declared to the world that he hoped too many girls wouldn't be too disappointed that he was now off the singles markert. But really Ms Warminger had always been the one for him.

With a little bit more work on her backhand, Rafa hopes he may get a WC for a Nadal / Warminger mixed doubles pair at Wimbledon. He thinks being together like that will trully seal their love and bond for life

biggrin Never mind me, I just have nuts tennis dreams. Occasionally I actually have normal tennis dreams - such as I dream I'm at Wimbledon watching a match - but mostly they're absolutely nuts. For example, they have included the following;

Me choking Nadal in a martial arts duel and yelling at him to tap out but he wouldn't (actually kinda makes sense if you look at it as an analogy for how Nadal never gives up in his matches).
I and ten of my favourite players accidentally misuse a time machine and wind up in 1939 Nazi Germany at the launching of a battleship.
A tennis event was held underneath a waterfall or actually in the sea.
Andy Murray was borrowing money and in serious debt.
Over the course of various dreams, Andy, Jamie and Nole have all been my first cousins, and Verdasco my elder brother.
Again over the course of various dreams, players have appeared as either my colleagues at university or first-years who I've had to show around campus.
Being trapped in a weird alternate-reality adventure park place with Nadal, Djokovic and Safin and trying to find a way out.
That I'm a tennis player... but always always my opponents are men and I'm on the men's tour, not the women's tour.

Lol yeah, there are more I can't remember them all now. This one was ridiculously stupid. I was saying to Nadal in the dream "But Rafa, you're only two years older than me, that means you fell in love with her when you were like, 8! Something's wrong here, I don't remember you going to my primary school..." biggrin

Anyhoo, sorry, off-topic, but just hilarious.