Masters Cup - Shanghai : Andy Murray (Red Group)

angry1 · Lower Club Player

RE: Masters Cup - Shanghai : Andy Murray (Red Group)

Mikeduke · County player

Apparently Roddick has pulled out due to an ankle injury, not sure who his replacement is. Although I read somewhere that they were Radek Stepanek and Nicolas Kiefer

Anyone know what happens to Andy's results? If it still stands the set difference is going to count against him!

Edit: according to BBC it is Stepanek, who takes over Roddicks loss.

-- Edited by Mikeduke at 10:03, 2008-11-12

The Hoose · Satellite level

That's really annoying and, assuming set difference stands, should work in Simon's favour and against Andy, who may need a straight sets win today. Hopefully Stepanek will be a bit fresher than some, and cause Simon some problems (or even put Roger out of it).

steven · Tennis legend

I realise it makes sense to have Count DUCKula taking over from DUCKboy, but seriously, he's not even in the top 20 - did nobody higher-ranked want to play?!

seagull · Hall of fame

No - not 1 player although I think being in Shanghai makes a big difference.

Think London maybe different - if anyone else pulls out then it's Kiefer!!

The Hoose · Satellite level

Fed's beaten Stepanek, which means he'll have all to play for against Andy. I'd expect Andy to be up for this game - not only would it be good to knock Federer out of the tournament, to give himself an easier final, but there is big money and ranking points at stake for winning the tournament with a 100% record.

indiana · Tennis legend

seagull wrote:

No - not 1 player although I think being in Shanghai makes a big difference.

Think London maybe different - if anyone else pulls out then it's Kiefer!!

Boggo's got the rest of the week free I understand

-- Edited by indiana at 14:19, 2008-11-12

Mikeduke · County player

Fed could still go through if he loses to Murray and Stepanek beats Simon. (I think)

Simon loses 2 - 1
Fed loses 2 -1

1.Murray 3 wins 6-2
2.Fed 1 win 4-4
3.Steps 1 win 3-5
4.Simon 1 win 3-5

Simon loses 2-1
Fed loses 2-0

1.Murray 3 wins 6-1
2.Fed 1 win 3-4 (Fed goes through as he has higher % of winning sets)
3.Steps 1 win 3-5
4.Simon 1 win 3-5

Simon loses 2-0
Fed loses 2-0

1.Murray 3 wins 6-1
2.Fed 1 win 3-4 (Fed has beaten Steps)
3.Steps 1 win 3-4
4.Simon 1 win 2-5

Simon loses 2-0
Fed loses 2-1

1.Murray 3 wins 6-2
2.Fed 1 win 4-4
3.Steps 1 win 3-4
4.Simon 1 win 2-5

So infact Steps wins then Fed is through whatever happens.

If Fed beats Murray he will be top of the group (as a 2-1 win would leave 5-3(fed) vs 5-3(murray) and Fed has beaten Murray.) Murray must beat Fed to come top of the group.

Fed can only go out if he loses and Simon wins.

Mikeduke · County player

Have I missed something? The Times and BBC both say if Federer lose he is out?

The Hoose · Satellite level

They're probably assuming that Simon will beat Stepanek.

Madeline · Admin:Moderator + Tennis Legend

Mikeduke wrote:

Have I missed something? The Times and BBC both say if Federer lose he is out?

There is a hilarious thread on MTF where this is argued out (14 pages long last night when I read it, probably longer by now!) and this is the conclusion that they came to as well. I can't remember all the arguments now, but the conclusion was (I think!) that Simon's match was totally irrelevant (because Steps was ruled out through not playing enough matches) and that if Federer won against Murray he was top of the group with Murray second, but if Andy won HE was top of the group with Simon second. So, Roger's fate depends on himself alone.

indiana · Tennis legend

14 pages, well as was smile

to reach the wrong conclusion. Brilliant !!

I'm definitely with the Mikeduke analyis, Fed's through if Simon loses.

Anyway, as a result of todays' games, I make it Djokovic 1st ( on basis of head to head, since same sets difference ) and Davydenko 2nd in Gold Group. MTF will no doubt be debating that though smile

I'm not sure there is that much between these two just now, so Andy might as well beat Fed, and probably ( but not necessarily ) put him out the tournament, plus get the ranking points plus get the money.

Mikeduke · County player

Well to be honest I haven't fought my way through that thread, but I gather they are talking about this rule

If three (3) players each have one win, a player having played less than all three
(3) matches is automatically eliminated and the player advancing to the Single
Elimination competition is the winner of thematch-up of the two (2) players tied
with 1-2 records; or

So as Simon beat Federer, he will be going through whatever. (If Murray beats Fed)

I dont really understand the thought behind the rule though, surely winning 1 match in 2 is better than winning 1 match in 3. Also whats the point in alternates if they dont inherit wins, completely disadvantages the player who has beaten the retired player.

-- Edited by Mikeduke at 16:40, 2008-11-13

-- Edited by Mikeduke at 16:53, 2008-11-13

Madeline · Admin:Moderator + Tennis Legend

Well yes, but suppose the alternate "inherits" the scores of an injured player who has won two matches? It would hardly be fair for them to qualify, would it? An alternate is surely only there so that there is a match to play instead of a large gap (and to ensure the players who were due to meet the injured player are not disadvantaged.)

You can't just have a walkover in Round Robin where positions can be determined by number of sets and /or games played.

Incidentally, the overwhelming opinion of the tennis press agrees with my post. If Fed beats Andy he is top of the Red Group with Andy second, if he loses he is out of the tournament altogether and Simon is second in the group.

-- Edited by Madeline at 16:59, 2008-11-13

indiana · Tennis legend

The Tennis Masters Cup site itself says : "Federer must now beat Murray in order to stand a chance of qualifying"

So I am kind of beginning to believe that indeed he must beat Murray to be able to continue. That said though, I still kind of think that if he beats Murray that is enough for him rather than it just gives him a chance. But I'm close to giving up on all this. Once I was clear, now I haven't got a blooming clue ! smile