Yes, winning can never hurt anyone and even playing tournaments below your level will help you (however little).


But at the same time, if Coxy won this and USO back to back (which he's jolly well capable of if he can beat Bellucci and give Nishikori a match in consecutive days), he'll surely be tired for the two Futures in Nottingham.




And with not agreeing with my views regarding player development - of course it's fine, that's what messageboards are for.

But while there's a big chance that my views are rubbish, I'd strongly advise anyone against blindly trusting the knowledge of an organisation which has failed to create a top 100 player since God knows when.

I have no idea if it was shown on the stream as they didn't put up a notice for some reason.

And I fell asleep early yesterday.



But Willis won by 64 46 64.

john wrote:

---

DJ wrote:

---

Salmon wrote:

---

XCW4EVA wrote:

---

im still not sure its right t clap when your favourite player loses, no matter what your opinion on his scheduling, but this is an old argument that theres no point in starting again.

---

But it's in the best interests of Coxy's career that he loses as fast as possible in any Junior event he plays. That way he can be fresher for tournaments he should be playing.

Don't think it's just an opinion any more, isn't it?

---

Yes, Arka, it's definitely just an opinion, and, simply because you, personally, hold it so strongly doesn't necessarily make it right! I disagree completely, though I've not said so before, and I don't intend getting into a discussion on it now. My views pretty well co-incide with Bladetiger's, as expressed when there was a great deal of discussion on the topic a few months back.

I very much enjoy your contributions to the site, and, most of the time, I find myself in agreement with your views; but as for this bee in your bonnet about knowing better than the LTA and the coaches as to the best way forward for the youngsters - no, I'm afraid not.

---

 This seems a little over-condescending to me. You disagree completely but "don't intend to get into a discussion on it". Why comment if you don't want to get in a discusion?

Care to explain why you think playing the US Open Juniors is a good move for Coxy, other than "the LTA said so and they are all-knowing gods of player development"?

---

Two apologies before I start - firstly, to John, for having taken a wee while to respond; I wasn't ignoring you, I simply hadn't read your comment till yesterday evening.
 - and secondly, to those of you who dislike the copying of large chunks of 'he said/she said', as I've done here (I recall Lynne and Helki getting dog's abuse for doing it earlier in the summer!). In this case, though, I think it's relevant.

John, I'm sorry if you feel I was being 'over-condescending' (not just condescending, but 'over-condescending' - woe is me!). I didn't get the impression from Arka's response that he felt a victim of condescension, and I certainly didn't intend to be condescending - as I said, I have great respect for Arka, and the contributions he makes to our board; moreover, I don't feel that my views should carry more weight than Arka's, or yours, for that matter. Still, though, condescension is in the mind of the recipient, so I apologise for giving anyone that impression.

I didn't/don't 'intend to get into a discussion on it' mainly because I think this particular discussion was done to death earlier in the year; if you recall, there were pages of thread given over to it, with Arka and Bladetiger being the main, though by no means the only, contributors. If you read the last section of XCW4EVA's comment, from where this particular discussion emanated, you'll see that he/she (sorry, XCW, I don't know which) was making the very same point.

The reason I commented ("Why comment if you don't want to get in a discusion?") was that I didn't want our contributors to fall into the trap of 'acceptance because of constant repetition'; Arka wrote 'Don't think it's just an opinion any more, isn't it?', suggesting that everyone agrees with his view on where and in what tournaments our Juniors should play. I wanted to ensure that readers, especially those new(ish) to our site, know this isn't a closed book; Arka writes constantly about it, whilst the rest of us don't, but that doesn't mean that Arka is right and the rest of us should simply accept that ( and I'm quite certain that Arka would be the first to agree with the foregoing statement!)

As to your second paragraph, I can't offer a simple, definitive answer, but let me try a couple of thoughts, one re-hashed, one perhaps new, at least in terms of bt.net. I don't believe that the LTA are by any means perfect (two examples - a) the apparent disdain they seem to have for tennis nuts like ourselves in failing to publish draws/results at decent speeds - Steven makes the self-same point in a different way this morning in supporting your view of why Futures results take an extra week to be processed into rankings, b) the cutting-down, or -out, on Challenger and 15K Futures events. I suspect this will result in the narrowing of the base of our player-pyramid, and I'm a 'tennis for the masses - at all levels' person), but I do suspect that Paul Annacone and the many other quality coaches, many of whom will have given the bulk of their leisure time for many years to tennis, and all of whom will have the best interests of their charges in mind at all times, are in a far better position to know what that 'best' is, than are Arka, you, myself or even the venerable Steven.
The other 'new' (and I'm not trying to be condescending here; I'm sure lots of you will already have considered this!) thought is this - who knows what the future will bring? I was a Head Teacher for a quarter of a century before cardiac problems enforced an early retirement, and, throughout that period, I coached, in my 'spare' time, a wide variety of pupils at a wide variety of levels in a wide variety of sports. It was always clear to me, though, happily, not to the youngsters, that very few of them would ever be able to make a living from their chosen sport; I always felt, therefore, that 'carpe diem' was an important part of what was involved. Transferring that thought to Daniel Cox and his cohort is important; there is no way in which all of the group (Dan, Dan, Dan, Marcus, Josh, George and the many others close to their levels) are going to be able to make a living playing tennis - perhaps two of them may be able to make the top 150/200 where more money is made than expended. For the rest, the tennis tour will have been a brief, splendid, but slightly painful, period in their late teens and early twenties, when they spent a lot of their parents' money and missed out on the job prospects a university education would have brought. If they shoot off to Futures at 17, which is what seems to be advocated, the great majority of them will look back, when they're 30, 40 or 50, and regret not having the trophies, the medals, the press cuttings and so on - the sort of memorabilia which would boost their self-worth at a down time in their lives, which their children, or grandchildren, would see and cause them to look at their forebears with shining eyes, filled with pride at the 'Runner-up, US Open Juniors, 2008' medal, or the page in 'ACE' featuring their Canadian Junior Open win. For what it's worth, my advice would be not to rush off into the adult tennis world too soon - unless you're a virtual cert, like Andy, to make it to the top; instead, gather the memories, and memorabilia, which show how good you are among your peers, then move on when you're really old - 18! - to the tough adult world.

There are other cogent reasons for staying on the Junior tour another few months, too, such as improved sponsorship from greater publicity - loyalty to the system which helped you reach the top might even come into it ...

I'll copy my post from an earlier thread. I am honestly tired about this whole thing (and it'll never end, I know).



"

I mean, just look at Spain, which is unquestionably the leading tennis nation (for men) in the world. Their players show how meaningless the Junior tour is.


I checked through the records of all the Spaniards in the top 100 and the only one to have played regular Junior tour (not one off Slams) is -

Tommy Robredo


And those who didn't are -

Rafael Nadal
David Ferrer
Fernando Verdasco
Nicolas Almagro
Feliciano Lopez
Juan Carlos Ferrero
Marcel Granollers
Oscar Hernandez
Albert Montanes
Guillermo Garcia-Lopez
Ivan Navarro


With the ITF not storing all results from the time when Moya was a youngster, so we can't decide.



The Spaniards don't give a damn about sponsorships or fame. They make you play European 14 and under tennis and then make you work as hard as possible for around two years, after which you are thrown to the big stage of men's tennis. It's working fine, so I don't see how you lose by not playing enough Junior tennis?

"


So Spain have the totally wrong path and Britain has the right one. Oh, wait...

I have been watching these disputes for a while now and decided to sign up to have my say.

Salmon I really dont understand what makes you think that you know best about tennis. You have previously stated you have seen very little, if not none, of the juniors games. There is a lot more about tennis, or any other sport, than statistics, which is seemingly where you get your information from.
I do not dispute that the LTA have done and possibly still do handle some things in the wrong ways, but at the end of the day they have the experience of these mistakes and they should learn from them. The coaches behind the LTA are the ones who see the juniors play day in day out. They are the experienced people who judge when the right time is for a player to make the transition between junior and senior.

The lower end of the proffessional tour is not necessarily a better standard than the top end of the junior tour.

It is fair to say that the Spanish have had a huge number of successful players who have by passed the ITF circuit but that does not mean that it is the only way to make it to the top. This has to be a very subjective thing, if a player is not ready to move on from juniors then they shouldnt feel they have to just because its what the Spanish did, oh and it's what Salmon says.

Some players have to rely on sponsorship and so trying to complete the ITF to their best ability might actually be what HAS to drive them.

I also think it is strange how you consistently single out Evans and Cox as being the two to move on from juniors whilst the others should all stick with juniors 'because they aren't planning on becoming pro anytime soon' I quote. You cannot judge that by their results at the lower end of the ATP tour. That is to be judged by the way in which their game is, or needs to be, developed. Just because they have pulled off some good titles/ wins doesn't mean they are the best they could be in those matches, and doesn't actually mean a lot at this end of the tour. The game has to be in place before a player tries to push for the top of the senior tour. By staying on the junior circuit it still gives match practice against some players who are undoubtably better than these two i.e Tomic, Dimitrov and several more, as well as biding time to improve a player both mentally and physically.

There are other players like Smethurst and Willis, even Pauffley/Knights/Angus who may have as much or if not more potential than the two you singled out. Should they all be moving on from juniors? No because they arent ready, but you can't write them off just because they havn't pulled off such results at the same young age. Smethurst and Willis both have more height and more build behind them than Cox and Evans, which is bound to count for something at some point. You insinuate that the junior tour is for people who wont make it.

Cox and Evans are by no means storming through the junior tour which is what you would expect from a player who is too good for ITF's. And Cox does not necessarily have as much chance of making it as Murray did at his age, because Murray had won a junior Gand Slam.

Now I'm not saying I am right, and I am not saying that your theory is wrong, but what I am saying is you cannot judge a players ability or potential by statistics over the internet, it should be left to the top LTA coaches many of whom have been in the same shoes as these players, and probably know a little bit more about it than any of us on a forum.

Very well said Elephant.  I agree.