kundalini wrote:

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What did Andy do that troubled Novak? I would say his kicked second serve caused Djokovic real problems up until the game in which Andy was broken. But apart from that I really don't think Andy found some secret formula that Novak just couldn't deal with.

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I can see where you're coming from, but that doesn't mean that I agree.

For me, the really interesting thing today was that Andy didn't play that aggressively, something which usually dooms him to defeat.

However, he wasn't playing like the moonball muppet that usually resuilts when he plays less aggressively, instead his shots were going well beyond the service line.

The biggest thing I noticed, though, watching both of them from the camera end, was that Murray was keeping his shots far lower over the net than Nole was. Maybe that partially explains the error count, i.e. Andy making errors because his margin of error over the net was so small and Nole making errors that were a lot more forced than they looked.

I can't have been imagining this, because Nole even said in a post-match interview that his style is more suited to playing balls that come up quite high, which is why he did so well against Rafa, and he found the low balls from Andy much harder to deal with.

Also, while I doubt anybody would claim that the standard was as high as in the second set of the Nole-Rafa semi (big Final, nerves, no real surprise!), there were some brilliant heavyweight rallies and some wonderful shots made.

A legitimate question is whether Andy would have been able to change his game plan to be more aggressive had his tactics not worked so spectacularly well. I think maybe nowadays he would have.

What has really impressed me these last few weeks is how much Muzz seems to have got his head together. He's coping with situations that would have led to a match-losing meltdown only a few months ago and while you can look at those two dfs in one game and say it was a big choke (ok, it was), I find it amazing that in the biggest match of his career, Andy didn't serve any double faults until deep into the 2nd set.

Added to that, he didn't crumble after those lost mps (more than half of which were lost due to Nole finding some sublime shots when it really mattered), he just came back for more and eventually converted to still get the straight sets win - that's amazing given the circumstances, and winning four sets in a row against Nole would have seemed like a pipe dream less than two weeks ago.

Added to that, it's getting hard to remember how we all used to despair at Andy's fitness - the stamina he has shown over the last couple of weeks has been incredible.

I don't know how long he can keep this up. Indeed, I'm sure there are still going to be days when he just doesn't turn up, because that happens to nearly every player (even the energiser guinea pig <sorry, I'm afraid Rafa's "don't make me angry" face against Nole in the semi, with the twitchy nose, brought back childhood memories of a disgruntled guinea pig who didn't think he'd been given his fair share of dandelion leaves!>, if only when he's got blisters!), but he now looks like the most likely player to win a slam if the big three falter a tiny bit, and we can't really ask for much more than that at this stage of his career.

Although he's not going to get to the top quite as early as Rafa and Nole did, his progress now seems even more like that of Fed at the same age than it did when I did that list of uncanny similarities between their 21st birthday years back in May ... and while I'm not suggesting that the Muzzanator is ever going to be as good as Fed at his peak, that's quite an exciting thought!

You make some very good points, Mad.

There are some really great finals, eg. this year's Wimbledon, but there have been many finals over the many yeatrs that I have watched tennis that have been average to disappointing. 

In my opinion, this was a fairly good match, never consistently good enough to be great or even really good, and I probably hoped for better in that respect.  But yes, as a contest it was enthralling, though how much did you see from behind that sofa ?     The fact that I so wanted Andy to win, and was caught up in the match does not, I believe, mean that I didn't know that I was watching a decent tennis match, and certainly not an "abysmal" one.

You and Steven have made good points re "unforced error" counts.  With the better players in the game and the different power and changes of pace and spin etc, while some errors are clearly unforced, many are arguably forced.  To just quote "unforced error" statistics without full context can be a bit misleading.  Nerves undoubtably played a part at times, so too will have been the fact that it was very fast court and that as a few players had commented the balls had a tendency to fly in these conditions with the heat and general atmosphere.

I certainly noticed Novaks' body language at times was quite poor.  This was particularly noticeable quite early in the second set tiebreak, and was mentioned by the commentators.  He had come back into the match, and was sending Andy just the wrong signals at a point when he shoild surely have had a more positive air, or put on one even if he didn't.  Andy's was consistently so much better than it has been in the past, and even sometimes quite recent past.

The ultimate mental fortitude shown by Andy in his first Masters Series final was pretty impressive.  Yes, when he was in a position to serve for the match he did have a bit of a choke, serving his only 2 double faults.  But he managed to come through that, didn't serve any more in the second set, including the tiebreak when Novalk served two.  He had a wobble, managed to pull through it, for which he should be given credit, and it will serve him well for the next time ( and I hope there are many next times ).

No. 6 in the rankings ( with a lot of poiints to com eover the next 2 weeks ), no. 5 in the race, first Masters title, mr passive seeming hopefully to be in the past, but still adapting how much he attacks to the opponent and the circumstances, he is so clearly going in the right direction.

Yes, he will may still play occasional bad matches in the future for whatever reason, although compared with quite a number of top players, he very rarely loses matches that he should very clearly win. Hopefully very few though, and as I say the general direction is clearly good. 

I read that kundalini says that before this match he actually thought that Andy might win the US Open this summer.  I agree he might, although I would probably still make the "big 3" favourites ahead of him.  Cincinnati I thought was his court ( US Open courts will not I am pretty sure be as fast ), his time.

The implication seemed to be that kundalini didn't now think that Andy might win the US Open.  If I have got this wrong, I apologise.  If correct, I am very surprised.  You go through a match and experience like that, surely it makes you more prepared, more likely to achieve that goal.

Murray's DF's as being dreaful, while Djokovic's werent? - On the occasions I typed that, the ball was hitting the middle of the net and was never close to going in while Djokovic's just missed... maybe what I typed wasn't quite right but I did think those serves from Murray weren't very good at all.

And not taking the pressure? On the 4 match points, he only got 1 first serve in, hit one of the shortest second serves in history, missed a backhand he hadn't missed all match, and served 2 doubles in the game which never got close to going over the net... that doesn't appear to be someone who is taking the pressure well, and Murray looked very nervous, but Djokovic did play a fantastic game when Murray served for the match... and after Djokovic held for 5-5, Murray re-composed himself and was determined to win the match.

I maintain that it wasn't the highest quality of tennis as there were far too many unforced errors (and some of them were shots that were nowhere near the court under no meaningul pressure), but finals rarely do seem to be great matches (barring the Fed/Nadal Wimbledon final), and Murray has played better matches this week, but he played well enough to win the match.

EDIT: It was nowhere near as bad in terms of the tennis as the Hewitt/Baghdatis match at the Aussie Open, but was similar in the sense it was an epic match that no-one will forget because of what happened in the match, but was full of unforced errors and was horrible to watch - Murray/Djokovic was a lot better quality tennis than that match, but will be remembered in a similar fashion for the outcome rather than the match itself.

Murray played a decent match and took Djokovic out of his comfort zone, but Djokovic played a very poor match at times and didn't seem to know what to do against Murray (partly because of the way Murray was playing)... does look like Murray has figured out a way to beat Djokovic, which is great news.

It's a fantastic achievement for Murray to win the tournament, and he's got to be at worst 4th favourite for the US Open now (and with Federer's current form and Nadal's struggle on fast hard courts and Murray having figured out Djokovic), there's a chance he could win the title which would be brilliant news.


-- Edited by ForeverDelayed at 12:01, 2008-08-04

imoen wrote:

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I've added a quick word to the BT article about the debate here with a link. Whilst I think your article was as good as usual FD, I don't think it's fair to offer only one opinion when we are so clearly divided.

Personally speaking, I wouldn't dispute that the match wasn't of the greatest quality, but I think my own personal lack of knowledge and the fact that I was so emotionally involved made me like Madeline, I thoroughly enjoyed the gladatorial contest between the two and I thought the tennis was good, if not great, from both sides of the net.

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No worries... like I said I enjoyed the match but I can't say it was a great tennis match, and maintain that Murray has had better matches this week.

And if you think I've been a bit negative, read the comments about the match on MTF, even from Murray's fan, and suddenly my opinion will appear as glowing praise  

Highlights of the Final:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3vo1xfLnOg

Interview with Andy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up3tAgQuWSQ

-- Edited by mkkreuk at 12:17, 2008-08-04

It is now irrelevant what the tennis was like. Personally, i enjoyed the match and am delighted that Muzza finally has a masters series title. In the bigger picture Murray has been doing really well of late and seems to have matured a great deal. I am sure more masters titles will come his way and this is another giant step towards winning a grand slam title. This type of victory will lift his belief skywards even more now and he surely has a chance maybe of a medal at the olympics.