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indiana · Tennis legend

Week 46 - ATP Year End Tour Finals - Turin, Italy (indoor hard) - DOUBLES

indiana · Tennis legend

6-5*. Getting a wee bit of crowd support !!

indiana · Tennis legend

And ultimately, to no great surprise in the end, the sheer will of Musetti and that crowd proves too much for de Minaur

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Well done Musetti. Sadly he runs into Alcaraz next!

indiana · Tennis legend

JonH comes home wrote:
Well done Musetti. Sadly he runs into Alcaraz next!

At least he will get a day off tomorrow.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

I was looking back at past tour finals. For the first 10 years or so, early 70s , they were held in December. The event had moved around the globe but then went to Madison Square Garden and for 10 years or so were staged in mid January. The Aussie Open was in December then. The two swapped in the mid to late 80s.

When it was in January we also had the doubles finals as a separate event, at Olympia and then the Royal Albert Hall, then at the NEC. January was a great date for those and seemed to be well liked as a season opener with fresh players and appetites. A January AO, though, doesnt allow that.

When it was going, the rival WCT Finals had its tour finals in Dallas in April or May. The WCT season ran Jan to Spring. The Grand Prix tour (now the ATP Tour) ran after that through the end of the year, although they started to overlap, fell out, and WCT gradually submerged into the Grand Prix. Again, May worked well and the event always seemed fresh in Dallas.

I guess Im saying, it doesnt have to be November. Personally, i think it would be good to reduce the post US Open season and let the US Open be the end of the Race season, with the Tour Finals in late September ish and Davis Cup in October, leaving November and December as off season or, if they choose, let the players do exhibitions etc

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Big domestic match today for Joe and Neal against Henry and Harri.

Henry and Harri probably favourites, but Joe, in particular, has a rich history in these Tour Finals and they have looked sharp recently.

Going to predict an MTB finish in this one, probably Henry and Harri to nick it.

Starts at 1030am

indiana · Tennis legend

JonH comes home wrote:
I was looking back at past tour finals. For the first 10 years or so, early 70s , they were held in December. The event had moved around the globe but then went to Madison Square Garden and for 10 years or so were staged in mid January. The Aussie Open was in December then. The two swapped in the mid to late 80s.

When it was in January we also had the doubles finals as a separate event, at Olympia and then the Royal Albert Hall, then at the NEC. January was a great date for those and seemed to be well liked as a season opener with fresh players and appetites. A January AO, though, doesnt allow that.

When it was going, the rival WCT Finals had its tour finals in Dallas in April or May. The WCT season ran Jan to Spring. The Grand Prix tour (now the ATP Tour) ran after that through the end of the year, although they started to overlap, fell out, and WCT gradually submerged into the Grand Prix. Again, May worked well and the event always seemed fresh in Dallas.

I guess Im saying, it doesnt have to be November. Personally, i think it would be good to reduce the post US Open season and let the US Open be the end of the Race season, with the Tour Finals in late September ish and Davis Cup in October, leaving November and December as off season or, if they choose, let the players do exhibitions etc

What about these further down the food chain, not involved in Tour Finals, Davis Cup, or sought after for exhibitions? Is it just the ATP Tour you are talking about winding up in September?

Not sure about an inevitable increase in exhibition tennis. Though I guess you are just talking about what you would like since it's clearly never happening re Asia in particuiar.

-- Edited by indiana on Wednesday 12th of November 2025 08:35:52 AM

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

indiana wrote:
JonH comes home wrote:
I was looking back at past tour finals. For the first 10 years or so, early 70s , they were held in December. The event had moved around the globe but then went to Madison Square Garden and for 10 years or so were staged in mid January. The Aussie Open was in December then. The two swapped in the mid to late 80s.

When it was in January we also had the doubles finals as a separate event, at Olympia and then the Royal Albert Hall, then at the NEC. January was a great date for those and seemed to be well liked as a season opener with fresh players and appetites. A January AO, though, doesnt allow that.

When it was going, the rival WCT Finals had its tour finals in Dallas in April or May. The WCT season ran Jan to Spring. The Grand Prix tour (now the ATP Tour) ran after that through the end of the year, although they started to overlap, fell out, and WCT gradually submerged into the Grand Prix. Again, May worked well and the event always seemed fresh in Dallas.

I guess Im saying, it doesnt have to be November. Personally, i think it would be good to reduce the post US Open season and let the US Open be the end of the Race season, with the Tour Finals in late September ish and Davis Cup in October, leaving November and December as off season or, if they choose, let the players do exhibitions etc
What about these further down the food chain, not involved in Tour Finals, Davis Cup, or sought after for exhibitions? Is it just the ATP Tour you are talking about winding up in September?
Not sure about an inevitable increase in exhibition tennis. Though I guess you are just talking about what you would like since it's clearly never happening re Asia in particuiar.

-- Edited by indiana on Wednesday 12th of November 2025 08:35:52 AM

Oh, yeah - it will never happen!!

I was thinking just the main tour, challengers and ITF's could continue as long as currently - the WTA in fact has sort of got that model with Tour FInals last week and 125's running on.

My actual preference would be for the Tour Finals to purely be based on Grand Slam and 1000's for counting points, not the whole rankings, realise that could confuse the public a little but I think the rest are largely unnecessary anyway in terms of qualifying for this. So make sure the 1000's are done shortly after the US Open and the top players seasons can finish early (not sure what to do re Davis Cup in this model though!!).

Anyway, it wont happen so leave it at a flight of fancy with clear logistical issues incorporated !

indiana · Tennis legend

JonH comes home wrote:
indiana wrote:
JonH comes home wrote:
I was looking back at past tour finals. For the first 10 years or so, early 70s , they were held in December. The event had moved around the globe but then went to Madison Square Garden and for 10 years or so were staged in mid January. The Aussie Open was in December then. The two swapped in the mid to late 80s.

When it was in January we also had the doubles finals as a separate event, at Olympia and then the Royal Albert Hall, then at the NEC. January was a great date for those and seemed to be well liked as a season opener with fresh players and appetites. A January AO, though, doesnt allow that.

When it was going, the rival WCT Finals had its tour finals in Dallas in April or May. The WCT season ran Jan to Spring. The Grand Prix tour (now the ATP Tour) ran after that through the end of the year, although they started to overlap, fell out, and WCT gradually submerged into the Grand Prix. Again, May worked well and the event always seemed fresh in Dallas.

I guess Im saying, it doesnt have to be November. Personally, i think it would be good to reduce the post US Open season and let the US Open be the end of the Race season, with the Tour Finals in late September ish and Davis Cup in October, leaving November and December as off season or, if they choose, let the players do exhibitions etc
What about these further down the food chain, not involved in Tour Finals, Davis Cup, or sought after for exhibitions? Is it just the ATP Tour you are talking about winding up in September?
Not sure about an inevitable increase in exhibition tennis. Though I guess you are just talking about what you would like since it's clearly never happening re Asia in particuiar.

-- Edited by indiana on Wednesday 12th of November 2025 08:35:52 AM
Oh, yeah - it will never happen!!
I was thinking just the main tour, challengers and ITF's could continue as long as currently - the WTA in fact has sort of got that model with Tour FInals last week and 125's running on.
My actual preference would be for the Tour Finals to purely be based on Grand Slam and 1000's for counting points, not the whole rankings, realise that could confuse the public a little but I think the rest are largely unnecessary anyway in terms of qualifying for this. So make sure the 1000's are done shortly after the US Open and the top players seasons can finish early (not sure what to do re Davis Cup in this model though!!).
Anyway, it wont happen so leave it at a flight of fancy with clear logistical issues incorporated !

Actually, not necessarily that confusing to have a separately more limited counting ATP race, given that is what the women have with the WTA race for their tour finals only counting WTA tour events, ie. just WTA 250 up. I guess, now that you put it like that re the ATP, that is partly their logic, that the WTA tour shuts down with the tour finals with just WTA 125s and ITFs thereafter.

I have gathered some folk find the WTA rankings and race counting different events a bit annoying ( for say an indication of how players are looking for the rankings based on their early year form ) rather than confusing, so it can be done, if arguably unnecessary since tour final contenders will barely ever play WTA 125s, let alone ITFs. ( and as an aside, the OER "WTA race" figures quite helpfully, by accident or design, actually do include all events rather than be an indication of the true WTA race ).

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Joe and Neal take the opening set, 7-6 (9-7 in the tie break).

They really do seem to enjoy these big Tour Final events - in fact with 2 slam finals this season, there's a case for them liking the big events full stop.

Interesting to see where this lands.

-- Edited by JonH comes home on Wednesday 12th of November 2025 11:54:19 AM

Stircrazy · Tennis legend

Stircrazy wrote:
RR1: (7) Simone Bolelli & Andrea Vavassori (ITA/ITA) CR 27 (13+14) defeated (1) Julian Cash & Lloyd Glasspool WR 3 (2+1) by 5 & 3
******
RR2: (1) Julian Cash & Lloyd Glasspool WR 3 (2+1) defeated (6) Kevin Krawietz & Tim Pütz (GER/GER) CR 22 (11+11) by 7-6(9) 6-2

RR2: (5) Joe Salisbury & Neal Skupski CR 19 (10+9) defeated (2) Harri Heliövaara & Henry Patten CR 8 (4+4) by 7-6(7) 3-6 [10-7]

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Oh, wow - well done Joe and Neal; it was a MTB but they hung the tougher and pleased for them with that.

So, if Arevalo and Pavic beat Harrison and King this evening, Joe and Neal are certainly into the semis.

I think also that H and H would prefer Arevalo and Pavic to win tonight as it means a straight 2 way head to head on Friday for the other semis spot; if Harrison and King win, it makes it more difficult, I think.

Either way, H and H pretty much have to win that last match to A and P and may as well not have maths getting into the equation (so to speak).

So, supporting A and P tonight - let's see how that goes

Well done to Joe and Neal!

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

I think I am right that H and H got the only break of that match. I also think they won something like 5 more points overall. They will be disappointed - Joe and Neal did a Lloyd and Julian and won it on the big points. Fine margins

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Out of interest, does anyone know a good resource to find DOUBLES head to head records? For example, if I wanted to see how many times Harri and Henry had played Joe and Neal and the results of those, what resource could I use to generate those head to heads? ATP and ITF dont seem to offer the information...

Thank you