Weeks 35-36 - Grand Slam US Open-Main Draw - Hard

christ · Futures level

RE: Weeks 35-36 - Grand Slam US Open-Main Draw - Hard

GAMEOVER · Satellite level

indiana wrote:
Won too big a prize too young so hey let's just take her down a few pegs, often very nastily too.

And influence the casual watchers against her too. Very sad.

Emma may have won a big prize too young but it is a prize only 2 other British women in tennis history have ever won i.e .The US singles Championship. Emma also has a big prize a major singles championship that Jabeur and Pliskova with 5 finals between could not win and look unlikely to win now. Emma has won more matches 4 in Grand Slam singles this year than any other British woman. It's a long time ago now but Virginia Wade struggled on court after her 1968 win but it didn't get the critical scrutiny it would have got these days.

-- Edited by GAMEOVER on Friday 30th of August 2024 07:43:26 PM

indiana · Tennis legend

GAMEOVER wrote:
indiana wrote:
Won too big a prize too young so hey let's just take her down a few pegs, often very nastily too.

And influence the casual watchers against her too. Very sad.
Emma may have won a big prize too young but it is a prize only 2 other British women in tennis history have ever won i.e .The US singles Championship. Emma also has a big prize a major singles championship that Jabeur and Pliskova with 5 finals between could not win and look unlikely to win now. Emma has won more matches 4 in Grand Slam singles this year than any other British woman. It's a long time ago now but Virginia Wade struggled on court after her 1968 win but it didn't get the critical scrutiny it would have got these days.

-- Edited by GAMEOVER on Friday 30th of August 2024 07:43:26 PM

I personally don't think that she really was too young, and what a triumph it was. The problem is that I do think with some folk it does largely account for the subsequent **** that she has had to endure.

Virginia, being much older, experienced and already known, would not have got anything like the same even today even if she subsequently struggled.

GAMEOVER · Satellite level

indiana wrote:
GAMEOVER wrote:
indiana wrote:
Won too big a prize too young so hey let's just take her down a few pegs, often very nastily too.

And influence the casual watchers against her too. Very sad.
Emma may have won a big prize too young but it is a prize only 2 other British women in tennis history have ever won i.e .The US singles Championship. Emma also has a big prize a major singles championship that Jabeur and Pliskova with 5 finals between could not win and look unlikely to win now. Emma has won more matches 4 in Grand Slam singles this year than any other British woman. It's a long time ago now but Virginia Wade struggled on court after her 1968 win but it didn't get the critical scrutiny it would have got these days.

-- Edited by GAMEOVER on Friday 30th of August 2024 07:43:26 PM
I personally don't think that she really was too young, and what a triumph it was. The problem is that I do think with some folk it does largely account for the subsequent **** that she has had to endure.
Virginia, being much older, experienced and already known, would not have got anything like the same even today even if she subsequently struggled.

We talk about young players and one ex player mentioned today as coaching Donna Vekic is Pam Shriver. In the whole of the 20th and 21st century she is the youngest player to reach a Grand Slam singles final. That was the 1978 US Open championship where she reached the final without dropping a set and then lost to Chris Evert and in a long career never reached another GS singles final.

wolf · Tennis legend

indiana wrote:
Won too big a prize too young so hey let's just take her down a few pegs, often very nastily too.

And influence the casual watchers against her too. Very sad.

We love to build people up only to tear them down.

Sad.

PaulM · Tennis legend

Nice to see Gauff battle past Svitolina (who I will always have a soft spot for). She's been really in her own head for a little while but when she relaxes and believes she's still so fun to watch.

Should really be her Vs Sabalenka from this half, and potentially a great match.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

There is a big difference in the modern age facing players like Emma that players like Tracy and Pam didnt have to contend with. And that is social media. It didnt exist. I think Chris Evert got a lot of press attention because, as well as being a prodigious talent, she was an attractive girl next door type. The players of the 70s like Borg, Connors and McEnroe got immense scrutiny but outside of them, the focus and scrutiny on some players only really came with the advent of mass social media. Everyone can see anything at anytime and comment on anything a player does without fear of reprisal. The press is now a 24 hour medium where click bait drives revenue and any new piece of information is fed out to a needy public.

And Emma is a victim of that whole machine. She also doesnt help, like some people such as Prince Harry, in that they fuel a lot of the attention by their actions, causing more comment and opportunity for criticism by the press and public who feel they have carte Blanche to comment and assess.

Its a tough time to be a star in any field in the public eye and they are easy targets, probably unwittingly. But they also need to help themselves by their actions and how they approach things to avoid being that easy target. Not sure Emma has got that right or, more likely, her media advisors havent got it right.

GAMEOVER · Satellite level

JonH comes home wrote:
There is a big difference in the modern age facing players like Emma that players like Tracy and Pam didnt have to contend with. And that is social media. It didnt exist. I think Chris Evert got a lot of press attention because, as well as being a prodigious talent, she was an attractive girl next door type. The players of the 70s like Borg, Connors and McEnroe got immense scrutiny but outside of them, the focus and scrutiny on some players only really came with the advent of mass social media. Everyone can see anything at anytime and comment on anything a player does without fear of reprisal. The press is now a 24 hour medium where click bait drives revenue and any new piece of information is fed out to a needy public.

And Emma is a victim of that whole machine. She also doesnt help, like some people such as Prince Harry, in that they fuel a lot of the attention by their actions, causing more comment and opportunity for criticism by the press and public who feel they have carte Blanche to comment and assess.

Its a tough time to be a star in any field in the public eye and they are easy targets, probably unwittingly. But they also need to help themselves by their actions and how they approach things to avoid being that easy target. Not sure Emma has got that right or, more likely, her media advisors havent got it right.

Chris Evert generated a lot of interest when she debuted at the 1971 US Open and went all the way to the semi finals. At the time comparisons were being made with the performance of Maureen Connolly in 1951. In those days we didn't have the internet and you had to buy the following days newspapers to find out the results.

Nix · Futures level

christ wrote:
Nix wrote:
christ wrote:
Nix wrote:
... personally I think words like spoilt and ego wouldn't be bandied around for a 21 year old male player.
Knowing the British press, I think that they would (they tend to be equal opportunity critics), but that shouldn't be allowed to detract from the narrative that she is an attractive female, so it must be sexism.
... doesn't quite explain why Ms Boulter is expected to get "[less than] a tenth of the horrid criticism Emma has received" - unless Ms Boulter is too old, maybe?
Really? I can't remember seeing daily articles about British male players calling them spoilt and complaining about spending too much time on endorsements. I'd love to see your sources?

Indy, I agree. All this negativity makes me cheer her on more. If the media stuck to facts and reasonable criticism rather than hyperbole and personal attacks then I'd think they probably had a point.
To be fair there haven't been a lot of 19 year-old British males that have won the US Open tennis through qualifying, and then gone on to spectacularly (comparatively) underperform while signing large contracts and having regular injuries whilst supervising a coaching merry-go-round.
A near comparison may be professional football players: I think the papers are - and have been for years - full of "considered critiques" of young male pro footballers that make the treatment of Ms Raducanu look positively mild.
(... as I recall even the sainted Sir Andrew of Dunblane was not immune to press/ media criticism in his youth after any whiff of under performance)

So you haven't got any evidence of current young male tennis players getting the same kind of treatment as Emma has despite claiming that they get the same treatment?

And are you saying that she shouldn't have signed the large contracts she was offered? If so that is preposterous.

I've agreed with the fair criticism about her coaching set up. Just the unfair stuff.

Are you saying that because footballers get unfair critiques then we should just join in at having a go at Emma? Don't get the point of that at all. I thought we were a site that was supporting British players?

Yes, Andy did, and I always thought it was unfair, but other young male British players don't get the vitriol that Emma does or the level of nasty press. And even Andy didn't get told he should just give up tennis or didn't care about playing or was lazy and spoilt, like Emma regularly does.

christ · Futures level

Nix wrote:
So you haven't got any evidence of current young male tennis players getting the same kind of treatment as Emma has despite claiming that they get the same treatment?

I never claimed that.

You claimed that the treatment of Ms Raducanu was sexism: I don't believe it is. There is no comparable tennis player - of either sex, so it is impossible to find exact evidence. The criticism of Ms Raducanu appears to be because she appears to be (to exaggerate slightly) spoilt, lazy and self-entitled - none of these are "sexist": and words like "spoilt" and "ego" are bandied about regarding (for example) young male footballers all the time.

I am perfectly happy to agree that no other tennis player has come in for the same criticism as Ms Raducanu, but I don't believe that the attacks are racism, sexism, or any other "-ism", they are the typical "build up to knock down" attacks that wolf observes, exacerbated in part by her own behaviour.

I think that we can debate whether the attacks are deserved or not without dragging in tired tropes of sexism (which does the world no favours because actual sexism, which is rife and unpleasant, should be called out and stamped on).

christ · Futures level

Nix wrote:
Are you saying that because footballers get unfair critiques then we should just join in at having a go at Emma? Don't get the point of that at all.

No. I was postulating an example in response to your demand for "evidence" of boys being teated similarly. (which I note that you appear to agree with)

No. I wasn't saying that we should join in having a go at Ms Raducanu, I was saying that I don't believe that it is sexism. (and as above - if you agree that males do get similar criticism, then you appear to agree with this too).

Nix · Futures level

christ wrote:
Nix wrote:
Are you saying that because footballers get unfair critiques then we should just join in at having a go at Emma? Don't get the point of that at all.
No. I was postulating an example in response to your demand for "evidence" of boys being teated similarly. (which I note that you appear to agree with)
No. I wasn't saying that we should join in having a go at Ms Raducanu, I was saying that I don't believe that it is sexism. (and as above - if you agree that males do get similar criticism, then you appear to agree with this too).

I didn't demand anything but I would have been interested to see your sources for your contention that Emma is treated the same as other young male tennis players but you have none. I don't agree that boys are treated similarly in tennis.Your only comparison was Andy Murray who was never castigated for having nice cars or advertising contracts and was a young player many years ago.

What happens in football is a completely different sport, where there are no comparable high profile female players. Even the England women's team are nowhere near the same level, so you cannot make a direct comparison.

If you are saying you don't think we should join in having a go at Emma but call her lazy, self-entitled and spoiled then I'd hate to see you being nasty about people.

Nix · Futures level

christ wrote:
Nix wrote:
So you haven't got any evidence of current young male tennis players getting the same kind of treatment as Emma has despite claiming that they get the same treatment?
I never claimed that.
You claimed that the treatment of Ms Raducanu was sexism: I don't believe it is. There is no comparable tennis player - of either sex, so it is impossible to find exact evidence. The criticism of Ms Raducanu appears to be because she appears to be (to exaggerate slightly) spoilt, lazy and self-entitled - none of these are "sexist": and words like "spoilt" and "ego" are bandied about regarding (for example) young male footballers all the time.
I am perfectly happy to agree that no other tennis player has come in for the same criticism as Ms Raducanu, but I don't believe that the attacks are racism, sexism, or any other "-ism", they are the typical "build up to knock down" attacks that wolf observes, exacerbated in part by her own behaviour.
I think that we can debate whether the attacks are deserved or not without dragging in tired tropes of sexism (which does the world no favours because actual sexism, which is rife and unpleasant, should be called out and stamped on).

When I see daily negative, personally offensive articles about British male tennis players in the feature pages of tabloid newspapers on a daily basis, discussing what they wear, what cars they drive and how much time they spend promoting products then I'll accept that it isn't sexism.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

My view is that sexism may well play a small part
But it's basically envy of ultra young players who 'have it all'
And, yes, it applies to footballers too
Which is a valid comparator because football is the most followed male sport and tennis is the most female sport

Basically, a player who has mega youth, looks, riches, charm, and success, creates an envy cloud that people can't wait to attack

And especially when they come out of nowhere and haven't done the hard yards, as far as people can see, and have the nerve to publicy enjoy all the success

Andy at age 21 did not tick all those boxes

Emma does

As do various young male footballers

indiana · Tennis legend

Nix wrote:
christ wrote:
Nix wrote:
So you haven't got any evidence of current young male tennis players getting the same kind of treatment as Emma has despite claiming that they get the same treatment?
I never claimed that.
You claimed that the treatment of Ms Raducanu was sexism: I don't believe it is. There is no comparable tennis player - of either sex, so it is impossible to find exact evidence. The criticism of Ms Raducanu appears to be because she appears to be (to exaggerate slightly) spoilt, lazy and self-entitled - none of these are "sexist": and words like "spoilt" and "ego" are bandied about regarding (for example) young male footballers all the time.
I am perfectly happy to agree that no other tennis player has come in for the same criticism as Ms Raducanu, but I don't believe that the attacks are racism, sexism, or any other "-ism", they are the typical "build up to knock down" attacks that wolf observes, exacerbated in part by her own behaviour.
I think that we can debate whether the attacks are deserved or not without dragging in tired tropes of sexism (which does the world no favours because actual sexism, which is rife and unpleasant, should be called out and stamped on).
When I see daily negative, personally offensive articles about British male tennis players in the feature pages of tabloid newspapers on a daily basis, discussing what they wear, what cars they drive and how much time they spend promoting products then I'll accept that it isn't sexism.

Tbf, I think CD sets it out very well. The GB comparison is really Emma vs male footballers and many of them do tick these boxes. There is clearly no true GB male tennis comparison.