Weeks 33 & 34 - ATP Masters 1000 - Cincinnati, OH, USA

Jaffa · Challenger level

Weeks 33 & 34 - ATP Masters 1000 - Cincinnati, OH, USA

Paullow B · Social player

Jack has won, but there's drama at the end. Just turned it over and Felix not happy at the net, supervisor down, but no idea what's going on, ha. Decision will stand though, but it's strange stuff.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

From what I read, and see, it was match point, and Jack played the ball after a double bounce - but it was obviosuly close and the umpire didn't call it a double bounce, so point to Jack - game, set and match

Tennis talk and the video of the point, stopped at the key moment, seem to clearly show it WAS a double bounce

www.youtube.com/watch

But as the guy says, not Jack's job, really, to call his own shots - and it's possible he didn't really realise either - it was close

But Jack has now had to take himself off instagram etc (or at least disable all commenting?) - coz of all the abuse/hate he's been receiving

Madadman · Masters Series Champion

x.com/steftsitsipas/status/1824629551143522443
Probably the best clip to see that Felix got a bad call. Lots of calls of Jack knew what happened etc but harsh imo when you are in the moment its hard to sometimes know this. Although the way the ball then traveled should have been a good indicator to the umpire. Decision amplified with it being match point.

Hopefully this blows over for Jacks sake.

Nix · Futures level

That's awful for Jack. I agree in the moment I think it's really hard to know one way or another, it's not like a bad line call where you can generally tell. Also in that still picture he's not even looking at the ball.

Getting abuse is out of line. I don't think I've even seen him have any controversy ever in a match, it's certainly not a common thing.

Poor Jack.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

It looks like Jack hits it down into the ground and then as it goes up he makes a little wafting motion with his racquet which makes it feel like he knew it wasnt right.

Unfortunate

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Even if Jack knew it was a double bounce, my feeling is that (a) I have special respect for the guys who do 'fess up and overturn points in their favour,

but (b) i don't damn the ones who don't

There's an argument that you just play by the calls, take the rough with the smooth (of course, this means that you shouldn't argue the t*ss about calls that go against you)

It might be a bit cool and frosty in the locker rooms now though....

However, as part of all the rule changes, I read that the US Open is introducing VAR on several courts

Maybe not a bad idea ...

PaulM · Tennis legend

Jack knew as you can tell by the follow through and the little quirk he does with the racket at the end of the motion. I've also seen chat he offered to replay but was turned down (although I find that strange as if players agree to replay a point I don't see how an Umpire can overrrule that).

This happens fairly regularly of course, it's just when it's in big events you have immediate replays going up on screens and TV after.

So while I agree players can and should play to the calls and you have to take the rough with the smooth - when you are aware of a clear error there is both an element of sportsmanship and integrity (which I get some people don't care about, it's money and points on the line), and that in big events it is going to be obvious within about 30 seconds when the replay is put on the big screen. Which makes it all the more ridiculous umpires can't utilise those for tough decisions!

I also think there's a difference between dodgy line calls and things like double touches, double bounces, net touches. But I'm not sure why I think that!

It'll all blow over but it's probably not done Jack many favours.

Although the absolute horror that umpire has had all week. It's remarkable after his first major mess-up he was given this match at all to be honest.

Madadman · Masters Series Champion

What is interesting is the clear as day error that those on social media are saying. Mostly are saying he hit it into the ground and it then went over the net. But it looks like its just a double hit when slowly scrolling the video on Tsitsipas Twitter that I posted. Ball bounces and hits the racket frame at the same time and then hits the strings to go over. No double bounce or anythiny just a double hit.either way in real time something seemed off but you get some calls for you and get some against you. This one just amplified as its MP.

wolf · Tennis legend

Madadman wrote:
What is interesting is the clear as day error that those on social media are saying. Mostly are saying he hit it into the ground and it then went over the net. But it looks like its just a double hit when slowly scrolling the video on Tsitsipas Twitter that I posted. Ball bounces and hits the racket frame at the same time and then hits the strings to go over. No double bounce or anythiny just a double hit.either way in real time something seemed off but you get some calls for you and get some against you. This one just amplified as its MP.

It was not a double hit or a double bounce. The ball hit his racquet and then went down into the ground.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

wolf wrote:
Madadman wrote:
What is interesting is the clear as day error that those on social media are saying. Mostly are saying he hit it into the ground and it then went over the net. But it looks like its just a double hit when slowly scrolling the video on Tsitsipas Twitter that I posted. Ball bounces and hits the racket frame at the same time and then hits the strings to go over. No double bounce or anythiny just a double hit.either way in real time something seemed off but you get some calls for you and get some against you. This one just amplified as its MP.
It was not a double hit or a double bounce. The ball hit his racquet frame and then went down into the ground.

agree with Wolf, thats what I saw. Racquet and into ground, then goes up and he does a little wafting thing as if he knew it wasnt right. Personally, I think Jack should have called himself there. I like the guy and dont castigate him, but he got that wrong in the heat of the moment.

-- Edited by JonH comes home on Saturday 17th of August 2024 07:25:51 AM

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

I think Jack will get a bit of the cold shoulder for a moment or two but it'll blow over quickly

Just to add, and it's not in Jack's defence, he's an adult, it's on him now, but it's maybe relevant:

I've watched plenty of juniors matches over the past 10 years, with LTA elite chosen players, playing 'normal' non-chosen players

And on rather a lot of occasions, those LTA players have not only been 'aggressive' in line-calling but have actually been encouraged to do so by their LTA coach:

I've got notes written in my files but two different instances I clearly remember are:

(1) The LTA coach said to his player: "If you're not sure, just call it out"

(2) An LTA player was calling balls out that were clearly in. They were 'in' by inches. It was flagrant. The parent of the other child came to complain to the LTA coach and he said something along the lines of:
"What's your problem? It's her line to call. A player has to be hungry for victory" - and when the parent walked off, he turned to his assistant/friend/whoever and said: "you've got to do what you've got to do to win, it's a good sign, good on her"

(NB Tennis is the only sport I can think of where junior players umpire themselves - it might be necessary for logisitcs, but it's wrong)

PaulM · Tennis legend

The slow mo replay it actually looks like Jack hit the ball three times.

First it gets jammed between the frame and the ground, it then pops back up onto the strings and then it touches a third time a split second later as the follow through begins. So the initial 'foul' is the ball off the racket onto his own side of court - which is quite hard to see in the moment - which is then compounded by double hitting - which was much more obvious in real time.

-- Edited by PaulM on Saturday 17th of August 2024 08:11:45 AM

Var · Pro player

Oh dear.Another bit of bad press for Jack. Would like to know what the feeling is in the locker room. Just needs to keep it clean from now on in. Having said that, social media mood is aggressive and anti Jack, but no more than the vile comments on Jodie Burrages feed, with death threats, or the day in day out abuse Emma gets. Jack will need to cope like the women have.

9vicman · Satellite level

PaulM wrote:
The slow mo replay it actually looks like Jack hit the ball three times.

First it gets jammed between the frame and the ground, it then pops back up onto the strings and then it touches a third time a split second later as the follow through begins. So the initial 'foul' is the ball off the racket onto his own side of court - which is quite hard to see in the moment - which is then compounded by double hitting - which was much more obvious in real time.

-- Edited by PaulM on Saturday 17th of August 2024 08:11:45 AM

I'm finding it so difficult to tell even watching it on slow mo. The ball being jammed between the frame and the ground is not that different from a half volley. Think it did go racket then ground but so difficult for the umpire to call.