Var wrote:

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Nix wrote:

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JonH comes home wrote:

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Alex blumming Yee!!

I LOVE triathlon, my favourite sport outside of tennis to watch - Yee was amazing to win that gold medal, what a result!

And Beth Potter got bronze in the womens, well done to her, she was delighted ( I thought she could have won, but she was v pleased so that is great!)

With those two, Georgia T-B and Sam Dickinson, we really stand a decent chance in the mixed relay as well!

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 Yee was astonishing. With not that far to go the commentators were fretting about the third place runner overtaking him and then suddenly he overtakes the New Zealander and blooming well does it. So humble as well. Thrilled for him. 

Those joyous women rowers as well. 

-- Edited by Nix on Wednesday 31st of July 2024 11:15:38 AM

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 Amazing morning! Loved those women rowers, what an achievement. One gold on the board already. Go GB rowing team. Yee , I still cant fathom how he pulled that back. What a performance. 

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 I don't know if anyone saw this mentioned post-race but apparently Alastair Brownlee, previous double gold medallist in the event, is Alex's mentor. When Alex passed him he called out, 'anything can happen'. Alex partly attributed that to his self-belief and that last minute spurt. 

This story has been rumbling on since at least Thursday.  The IOC proves that it deserves a place alongside FIFA & UEFA at the top of the sporting rottenness tree.  I imagine that it has emmsie foaming at the mouth! 

Stircrazy wrote:

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This story has been rumbling on since at least Thursday.  The IOC proves that it deserves a place alongside FIFA & UEFA at the top of the sporting rottenness tree.  I imagine that it has emmsie foaming at the mouth! 

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 I think (overall) this puts it very well

I don't like the fact they've put transgender women alongside athletes with 'intersex' or DSD conditions - I think it muddies the waters - it's not the same (although, of course, there is some overlap) but better to keep things clear. 

And the writer of the article is also wrong to say Khelif didn't appeal when she certainly DID appeal to CAS in Switzerland - but then withdrew it before the tribunal actally sat 

Like Caster Semenya, I feel rather sorry for the athletes - it can't be nice having all your medical personal issues plastered across newspapers - and I know in Caster's case, there were lots of older family members, for instance, who had no idea about her condition and were very proud of her in their village and then they had to read how their granddaughter was infertile, had hidden testicles, ..... you couldn't help but feel for them

I also believe that Khelif grew up in close to poverty, in rural Algeria: 

  "Each week she had to take a bus from her village to the training centre 10 kilometres away, but her family could not afford the fare

"I ended up selling bread in the street, I picked up crockery and other objects to earn money and be able to travel because I came from a very poor family.""

BUT, unfortunately for them, this all pales into insignificance. You cannot have physiological men beating up on women. There's no give or take here. What on earth are the IOC thinking of? 

It's also been pointed out that the IOC show a complete misunderstanding of the law. The right not to be discriminated against is a qualified human right, not an absolute one. It must be balanced against other people's rights, as well as public societal issues (it says so clearly in the text of Human Rights Conventions). 

I've also read that, at the time of writing, boxing is not currently a sport in the next Los Angeles Olypmics (lack of official body since the IOC sacked the IBA for corruption etc). I doubt the current 'optics', as they say, are going help ...... 

-- Edited by Coup Droit on Saturday 3rd of August 2024 12:20:32 PM

Steve J wrote:

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Coup Droit wrote:

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I don't like the fact they've put transgender women alongside athletes with 'intersex' or DSD conditions - I think it muddies the waters - it's not the same (although, of course, there is some overlap) but better to keep things clear. 

And the writer of the article is also wrong to say Khelif didn't appeal when she certainly DID appeal to CAS in Switzerland - but then withdrew it before the tribunal actally sat 

Like Caster Semenya, I feel rather sorry for the athletes - it can't be nice having all your medical personal issues plastered across newspapers - and I know in Caster's case, there were lots of older family members, for instance, who had no idea about her condition and were very proud of her in their village and then they had to read how their granddaughter was infertile, had hidden testicles, ..... you couldn't help but feel for them

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The purpose of the female category is to remove male advantage from female sport. It doesn't matter if a person has male advantage because they are a trans identified male or if they are a male with a DSD such as 5ARD, they have to be excluded from the female category.

Any sympathy that I may have had for the male DSDs such as Semenya went at the '16 Olympics.

Semenya chose to make his medical condition public when he went to CAS. 

 

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 I agree that both categories should be excluded - but that doesn't mean they should be treated as one and the same 

The DSD category is quite difficult to define, medically, there are questions about what counts and what doesn't.

Now, I would draw the line pretty tightly/conservatively/whatever the word meaning I would err on disallowing even minor DSD conditions that give male advantages

But I understand that there is a medical discussion to be had

Unlike with women who were normal biological men at birth (and or not went through male puberty). It's clear medically. Nothing to discuss.

That's why I think the two cateogries shouldn't be mixed.

And I certainly can still have sympathy for the athletes 

And I don't think calling Semenya a man is correct either - you're doing it to cause a reaction - Semenya does not have a penis, does not have visible testicles, or even normal non-visible testicles. AND she does not live, and never has, lived as a male. 

I agree that she does not qualify to take part in women's sport, no question in my mind, but I can still feel a bit sorry for her, as I do for anyone born with a lifelong awkward medical condition. 

I'm not disagreeing with you, the three athletes mentioned should not - IMO - be allowed to compete in women's sports (assuming the reports re XY chromosones are correct)

But having internal testicles and no penis is not a 'normal man' in most people's eyes

NB I don't know whether Semenya's level of testosterone is 'normal' for a man but there are certainly many different DSD conditions, with internal testes, some of which perform like normal testes, but some of which are 'shrivelled' and produce very low levels

medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001669.htm

Coup Droit wrote:

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NB I don't know whether Semenya's level of testosterone is 'normal' for a man but there are certainly many different DSD conditions

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Semenya is 5ARD. 

The genetics of the two boxers has not been made public, but as they have denied the IBA permission to release the results of the tesrts and decided not to go though with appeals to CAS...

I dont want to get too involved in this debate other than to say people need to be very careful on the language and tone they use in this debate. The narrative here in general (not on this board, in general) seems to be one of "hate" towards these people as if they are trying to pull a fast one. The vast majority of people affected by one of these variety of conditions are human beings with emotions and no ill intent.

It reminds me of the whole narrative aimed at the asylum seekers and immigrants around the "enough is enough" protests and riots going on - a feeling of hate is growing/exists as if the people who are immigrants or asylum seekers have ill intent towards others and are bad people at heart. They aren't, or most aren't, and we cant treat people like that on all of these debates - it incites and fuels hatred and we should all be better and more intelligent than that.

My daughter has what is regarded as an intersex condition - she is very much a girl, always has been (a woman now in fact) and is beautiful and intelligent and pretty. I wont share the conditions name but when she read about it in more detail when old enough, it upset her for it to be described as intersex; and the recent narrative around this whole debate at the Olympics has impacted her confidence and anxiety levels enormously.

So, please, consider the humans in this and the emotions and the wider people impacted and let's not spout or fuel any hatred.

-- Edited by JonH comes home on Monday 5th of August 2024 12:57:16 PM