Week 31 - WTA500 - Citi Open Washington, USA Hard

Strongbow · All-time great

RE: Week 31 - WTA500 - Citi Open Washington, USA Hard

dodrade · Futures qualifying

9vicman wrote:
Think we just have to be realistic in our expectations of Boulter (and Burrage) despite her current ranking. Without the Nottingham points she'd be in the 120s. Almost half (13/28) of her Top 100 wins have come on grass, and her last win on outdoor hard was 2022 Indian Wells. That said, consolidating a Top 100 ranking is certainly possible.

Surely Katie's game ought to be decent on hard courts?

Nix · Futures level

9vicman wrote:
Think we just have to be realistic in our expectations of Boulter (and Burrage) despite her current ranking. Without the Nottingham points she'd be in the 120s. Almost half (13/28) of her Top 100 wins have come on grass, and her last win on outdoor hard was 2022 Indian Wells. That said, consolidating a Top 100 ranking is certainly possible.

Do you mean WTA wins because Katie beat Jodie in the final of the outdoor Canberra tournament this year? Or are we discounting ITF tournaments as well as grass tournaments? She also reached another hard court final in Japan. Does it only count if they win WTA tournament matches not on grass? Because a few weeks ago they were being criticised for not playing enough ITF tournaments. It's almost as if they can't win.

Katie has also been a bit unlucky with draws, having met a couple of then underranked players in second round qualifying meeting Tsurenko at Indian Wells and Peyton Stearns in the first round of a WTA 250 after qualifying, meeting Peyton Stearns. It's not as if she has been consistently beaten by much worse players.

Jodie has actually won a hard court tournament (again ITF this year) beating Wickmayer and Bronzetti along the way. She also reached final qualifying at the AO. I don't agree with discounting points just because they come on grass at local tournaments. I'm sure other countries' players also do better on familiar surfaces in home tournaments too. As long as the professional bodies count points gained on grass tournaments they are equal value to any other tournament points. And I would certainly say for Boulter that consolidating a top 100 place is possible, given that she's 76 in the world currently! As for Jodie she's only just reached the top 100 but she's got more than enough talent to stay there and surely we shouldn't be talking down her chances so early on.

emmsie69 · Top national player

Nix wrote:
9vicman wrote:
Think we just have to be realistic in our expectations of Boulter (and Burrage) despite her current ranking. Without the Nottingham points she'd be in the 120s. Almost half (13/28) of her Top 100 wins have come on grass, and her last win on outdoor hard was 2022 Indian Wells. That said, consolidating a Top 100 ranking is certainly possible.
Do you mean WTA wins because Katie beat Jodie in the final of the outdoor Canberra tournament this year? Or are we discounting ITF tournaments as well as grass tournaments? She also reached another hard court final in Japan. Does it only count if they win WTA tournament matches not on grass? Because a few weeks ago they were being criticised for not playing enough ITF tournaments. It's almost as if they can't win.
Katie has also been a bit unlucky with draws, having met a couple of then underranked players in second round qualifying meeting Tsurenko at Indian Wells and Peyton Stearns in the first round of a WTA 250 after qualifying, meeting Peyton Stearns. It's not as if she has been consistently beaten by much worse players.
Jodie has actually won a hard court tournament (again ITF this year) beating Wickmayer and Bronzetti along the way. She also reached final qualifying at the AO. I don't agree with discounting points just because they come on grass at local tournaments. I'm sure other countries' players also do better on familiar surfaces in home tournaments too. As long as the professional bodies count points gained on grass tournaments they are equal value to any other tournament points. And I would certainly say for Boulter that consolidating a top 100 place is possible, given that she's 76 in the world currently! As for Jodie she's only just reached the top 100 but she's got more than enough talent to stay there and surely we shouldn't be talking down her chances so early on.

Equally Katie had a bit of luck with other draws. It slid under my radar that the highest ranked player she has beaten this year was ranked in the 90's I think so in terms of ranking, Harriet and Jodie have had far more impressive wins.

RJH1962 · Intermediate Club Player

Nix wrote:
9vicman wrote:
Think we just have to be realistic in our expectations of Boulter (and Burrage) despite her current ranking. Without the Nottingham points she'd be in the 120s. Almost half (13/28) of her Top 100 wins have come on grass, and her last win on outdoor hard was 2022 Indian Wells. That said, consolidating a Top 100 ranking is certainly possible.
Do you mean WTA wins because Katie beat Jodie in the final of the outdoor Canberra tournament this year? Or are we discounting ITF tournaments as well as grass tournaments? She also reached another hard court final in Japan. Does it only count if they win WTA tournament matches not on grass? Because a few weeks ago they were being criticised for not playing enough ITF tournaments. It's almost as if they can't win.
Katie has also been a bit unlucky with draws, having met a couple of then underranked players in second round qualifying meeting Tsurenko at Indian Wells and Peyton Stearns in the first round of a WTA 250 after qualifying, meeting Peyton Stearns. It's not as if she has been consistently beaten by much worse players.
Jodie has actually won a hard court tournament (again ITF this year) beating Wickmayer and Bronzetti along the way. She also reached final qualifying at the AO. I don't agree with discounting points just because they come on grass at local tournaments. I'm sure other countries' players also do better on familiar surfaces in home tournaments too. As long as the professional bodies count points gained on grass tournaments they are equal value to any other tournament points. And I would certainly say for Boulter that consolidating a top 100 place is possible, given that she's 76 in the world currently! As for Jodie she's only just reached the top 100 but she's got more than enough talent to stay there and surely we shouldn't be talking down her chances so early on.

I'm not sure the previous post was talking down their chances. Just asking for Patience. Both Katie and Jodie and where they are in the rankings because they deserve to be there. That said we should remember that in Jodies case in particular she was generally playing people ranked 250-400 only 18 months ago. Now she's regularly up against players in the top 150 and it will take a while for her to up her level and be more consistent. Katie I feel will cope better as she been around this ranking previously.

9vicman · Satellite level

Sorry for any confusion. I meant Katie's last TOP 100 win on outdoor hard was at 2022 Indian Wells, rather than ANY win on outdoor hard. Was comparing her performances against the top players on different surfaces, and noting how many wins were on grass. Am not discounting her Nottingham results, but was reflecting the impact of that one event on her ranking. Both Boulter and Burrage now have the opportunity to build on their grass court success and it will be interesting to see their schedules, as wins are tougher to come by at the highest level events and a good balance will be key.

9vicman · Satellite level

As an aside Burrage will temporarily drop out of Top 100 next week.

HarryGem · Club Coach

Nix wrote:
9vicman wrote:
Think we just have to be realistic in our expectations of Boulter (and Burrage) despite her current ranking. Without the Nottingham points she'd be in the 120s. Almost half (13/28) of her Top 100 wins have come on grass, and her last win on outdoor hard was 2022 Indian Wells. That said, consolidating a Top 100 ranking is certainly possible.
Do you mean WTA wins because Katie beat Jodie in the final of the outdoor Canberra tournament this year? Or are we discounting ITF tournaments as well as grass tournaments? She also reached another hard court final in Japan. Does it only count if they win WTA tournament matches not on grass? Because a few weeks ago they were being criticised for not playing enough ITF tournaments. It's almost as if they can't win.
Katie has also been a bit unlucky with draws, having met a couple of then underranked players in second round qualifying meeting Tsurenko at Indian Wells and Peyton Stearns in the first round of a WTA 250 after qualifying, meeting Peyton Stearns. It's not as if she has been consistently beaten by much worse players.
Jodie has actually won a hard court tournament (again ITF this year) beating Wickmayer and Bronzetti along the way. She also reached final qualifying at the AO. I don't agree with discounting points just because they come on grass at local tournaments. I'm sure other countries' players also do better on familiar surfaces in home tournaments too. As long as the professional bodies count points gained on grass tournaments they are equal value to any other tournament points. And I would certainly say for Boulter that consolidating a top 100 place is possible, given that she's 76 in the world currently! As for Jodie she's only just reached the top 100 but she's got more than enough talent to stay there and surely we shouldn't be talking down her chances so early on.

I think 9vicman was really just trying to put some perspective on things. It is obviously great to have both Katie B and Jodie in the top 100 but it is also fair to point out that they and the other top GB women do get a big advantage over other players when it comes to the short grass court season.

Obviously other players need to learn how to play on grass but generally our women are granted wildcards into tournaments often with a quite low standard of overall players and frankly "easy" points are on offer. The tournament at Nottingham this year was, I'd say, of quite a low standard. Of course you can only beat the players in front of you and well done to both Katie and Jodie for doing that.

The top GB women also get a big favour in the almost 100% guaranteed wildcard to Wimbledon, irrespective of whether they have generally underachieved over the course of the last few months. With the luck of the draw this can get them not only decent cash but, with the disproportionate number of points available in the majors a decent point haul too. As you say Katie B has had a bit of bad luck with draws but at Wimbledon I'd say she struck lucky with the first two rounds though that is not to take away anything from her wins.

Maybe she will still get a LL place in the current tournament. However, I'm not sure this was the right competition to enter at this stage. She and her team have shown great judgement earlier in the year by decamping off to Japan to take part in tournaments where the standard overall was really very modest which proved most successful. Maybe a European 250 would have been better right now? the fields are quite weak.

Both Jodie and katie B have a great opportunity to cement their top 100 places between now and the end of the year but they like all the top GB women need to show on a regular basis that they can compete on the other surfaces to grass. They all especially need to work harder on clay.

It really isn't sustainable to have a top say 50-75 career when you can only accumulate most of your points in a short 6 week period. Yes it can work short term but you only need one bad summer to drop rapidly down the rankings if you become heavily dependent upon the grass court season.

Nix · Futures level

HarryGem wrote:
Nix wrote:
9vicman wrote:
Think we just have to be realistic in our expectations of Boulter (and Burrage) despite her current ranking. Without the Nottingham points she'd be in the 120s. Almost half (13/28) of her Top 100 wins have come on grass, and her last win on outdoor hard was 2022 Indian Wells. That said, consolidating a Top 100 ranking is certainly possible.
Do you mean WTA wins because Katie beat Jodie in the final of the outdoor Canberra tournament this year? Or are we discounting ITF tournaments as well as grass tournaments? She also reached another hard court final in Japan. Does it only count if they win WTA tournament matches not on grass? Because a few weeks ago they were being criticised for not playing enough ITF tournaments. It's almost as if they can't win.
Katie has also been a bit unlucky with draws, having met a couple of then underranked players in second round qualifying meeting Tsurenko at Indian Wells and Peyton Stearns in the first round of a WTA 250 after qualifying, meeting Peyton Stearns. It's not as if she has been consistently beaten by much worse players.
Jodie has actually won a hard court tournament (again ITF this year) beating Wickmayer and Bronzetti along the way. She also reached final qualifying at the AO. I don't agree with discounting points just because they come on grass at local tournaments. I'm sure other countries' players also do better on familiar surfaces in home tournaments too. As long as the professional bodies count points gained on grass tournaments they are equal value to any other tournament points. And I would certainly say for Boulter that consolidating a top 100 place is possible, given that she's 76 in the world currently! As for Jodie she's only just reached the top 100 but she's got more than enough talent to stay there and surely we shouldn't be talking down her chances so early on.
I think 9vicman was really just trying to put some perspective on things. It is obviously great to have both Katie B and Jodie in the top 100 but it is also fair to point out that they and the other top GB women do get a big advantage over other players when it comes to the short grass court season.
Obviously other players need to learn how to play on grass but generally our women are granted wildcards into tournaments often with a quite low standard of overall players and frankly "easy" points are on offer. The tournament at Nottingham this year was, I'd say, of quite a low standard. Of course you can only beat the players in front of you and well done to both Katie and Jodie for doing that.
The top GB women also get a big favour in the almost 100% guaranteed wildcard to Wimbledon, irrespective of whether they have generally underachieved over the course of the last few months. With the luck of the draw this can get them not only decent cash but, with the disproportionate number of points available in the majors a decent point haul too. As you say Katie B has had a bit of bad luck with draws but at Wimbledon I'd say she struck lucky with the first two rounds though that is not to take away anything from her wins.

Maybe she will still get a LL place in the current tournament. However, I'm not sure this was the right competition to enter at this stage. She and her team have shown great judgement earlier in the year by decamping off to Japan to take part in tournaments where the standard overall was really very modest which proved most successful. Maybe a European 250 would have been better right now? the fields are quite weak.
Both Jodie and katie B have a great opportunity to cement their top 100 places between now and the end of the year but they like all the top GB women need to show on a regular basis that they can compete on the other surfaces to grass. They all especially need to work harder on clay.
It really isn't sustainable to have a top say 50-75 career when you can only accumulate most of your points in a short 6 week period. Yes it can work short term but you only need one bad summer to drop rapidly down the rankings if you become heavily dependent upon the grass court season.

Putting some perspective would be fine if this was the first time this had been covered. It is becoming a theme though of downplaying their wins because they're on grass, accusing them of not trying hard enough by playing enough tournaments and now saying they haven't had any hard court wins. And yet the actual evidence doesn't wholly support the claims. Surely we should be encouraging them when Katie and Jodie have just got into the top 100 rather than looking for negatives. At least let them get through the entire hard court season.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Just to say, Jodie will fall out of the top 100 next week, shes 101 live ranked and obviously wont get any points to try and claw that back now.

9vicman · Satellite level

Putting some perspective would be fine if this was the first time this had been covered. It is becoming a theme though of downplaying their wins because they're on grass, accusing them of not trying hard enough by playing enough tournaments and now saying they haven't had any hard court wins. And yet the actual evidence doesn't wholly support the claims. Surely we should be encouraging them when Katie and Jodie have just got into the top 100 rather than looking for negatives. At least let them get through the entire hard court season.

Yes, fair enough. Was in no way trying to downplay what have been excellent results on grass for two seasons running. We were concerned that so many players had results to defend from 2022, and the fact that they increased their rankings was impressive. I was just curious as to their record against Top 100 players rather than trying to make any sweeping statements.

Barefoot · Lower Club Player

To be fair there are always players in the bottom end of the top 100 whove got there via one or two big results OR lots of success on ITFs that hasnt yet translated to WTA. This gives them the opportunity to consolidate at higher levels - it might work, it might not, but everything evens out in the end.

I think both the girls are a bit overranked at the moment, but last time she was top 100 Katie was competing well with those around her level so hopefully shes able to settle in. Leylah perhaps not a fully accurate reflection of players of that ranking level!

Priesty · Challenger level

Not British I know - but a very impressive return to action for Jennifer Brady who has hammered WR 28 Kalinina 2 and 1!!

dodrade · Futures qualifying

No sign of a LL spot for Katie?

indiana · Tennis legend

JonH comes home wrote:
Just to say, Jodie will fall out of the top 100 next week, shes 101 live ranked and obviously wont get any points to try and claw that back now.

And just to say again, more actually in response to some of the earlier points above, that Jodie had never been inside even the top 200 until June last year.

So overall, based on her own career up to that point, she has hugely progressed in the last year or so and deserves particular credit for some clear improvements in oncourt attitude.

Yes, she was previously underachieving relative to her ability, partly due to that previous attitude, but certainly not particularly now ( although there are still times ) and as well as her rankings rise she has collected some very good scalps.

Of course, constructive criticism and context should be part of our discussions, and Jodie for one has certainly had that. But also let's not be too quick to downplay players who for the vast majority of the time are trying their best ( however much better they and us would wish them to be doing ) and if some may be arguably a bit overranked, so be it - good luck to them, they didn't determine the ranking or WC systems.