Week 37 - 2023 Davis Cup Finals, Group Stage - (Indoor Hard)

Smudge226 · Strong Club Player

Week 37 - Davis Cup Finals, Group Stage - (Indoor Hard)

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

I guess it was always going to be them or Italy so no surprises. Bring it on. We should be able to aim at winning 2 of those; this time we can happily sacrifice someone v Djoko and focus on how we best win the second singles string match and doubles.

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

The big complaint going on at the moment on Social Media is that the actual schedule will come out - 'in the coming weeks'. Given that the finals are only 8 weeks away, fans flying in need to know the schedule as soon as possible in order to make travel plans.

Stuart Fraser and Mike Dickson (among others) are not impressed.

GB could play on Tues/Weds/Thurs. Surely it's not hard to draw up a schedule.

-- Edited by Bob in Spain on Tuesday 19th of September 2023 11:09:31 AM

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Bob in Spain wrote:
The big complaint going on at the moment on Social Media is that the actual schedule will come out - 'in the coming weeks'. Given that the finals are only 8 weeks away, fans flying in need to know the schedule as soon as possible in order to make travel plans.

Stuart Fraser and Mike Dickson (among others) are not impressed.
GB could play on Tues/Weds/Thurs. Surely it's not hard to draw up a schedule.

-- Edited by Bob in Spain on Tuesday 19th of September 2023 11:09:31 AM

What actually is the structure of the event? It seems to be 6 days so I would guess (and from past years?) it could be:

QF Tues/Wed/Thurs - meaning most likely Tues PM, Wed PM and then ties Thurs AM/PM and PM/evening?

SF - Fri (for those who played Tues and Wed) and Sat daytime for those who played Thursday?

Final - Sunday

The issue here will also be that a team playing the Saturday and winning has much less recovery time than the team playing Friday to get ready for the final.

I probably have that completely wrong but it seems fraught with reasons to complain bitterly!!

seagull · Hall of fame

Looks like we may be on the Thursday as Novak has ATP finals week before

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

seagull wrote:
Looks like we may be on the Thursday as Novak has ATP finals week before

presumably , though, a number of singles and doubles players will be in that situation and we wont know how deep they go in Turin until the week before?

Canada - not sure if FAA or Shapo can qualify

Finland - Harri H may still qualify for Turin as an outside shot?

Czech Rep - not sure if any doubles players may qualify?

Australia - one or two doubles players?

Italy - Sinner?

NL - Koolhof, Middelkoop?

Serbia - Novak

GB - Neal, Joe, maybe Cam??

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

JonH comes home wrote:
seagull wrote:
Looks like we may be on the Thursday as Novak has ATP finals week before
presumably , though, a number of singles and doubles players will be in that situation and we wont know how deep they go in Turin until the week before?
Canada - not sure if FAA or Shapo can qualify
Finland - Harri H may still qualify for Turin as an outside shot?
Czech Rep - not sure if any doubles players may qualify?
Australia - one or two doubles players?
Italy - Sinner?
NL - Koolhof, Middelkoop?
Serbia - Novak
GB - Neal, Joe, maybe Cam??

Actually, based on current top 8's it would be Djoko, Sinner, Skupski, Koolhof, Ebden, Salisbury, maybe Rojer (Dutch nationality and 8th currently but not in semis squad). So not too many

indiana · Tennis legend

Yes, have some consideration for people and get that schedule sorted. They could probably do with every travelling fan they can get.

Now it doesn't need to be like the Rugby Union World Cup and do seeded draws 3 years before the event so everyone knows where they stand, and then end up with a horrifically unbalanced draw - tangental Scottish rant over. But sort it out now.

Why the delay?

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

indiana wrote:
Yes, have some consideration for people and get that schedule sorted. They could probably do with every travelling fan they can get.

Now it doesn't need to be like the Rugby Union World Cup and do seeded draws 3 years before the event so everyone knows where they stand, and then end up with a horrifically unbalanced draw - tangental Scottish rant over. But sort it out now.

Why the delay?

Theyre probably waiting for the tv partners to tell them what schedule they want to have?

Smudge226 · Strong Club Player

seagull wrote:
Looks like we may be on the Thursday as Novak has ATP finals week before

There shouldn't be any preferential scheduling, there isn't for any other DC week or weekend in the calendar.

The only fair way to schedule would be for two QF's on Tues and Wed, with SF Thurs and Fri, Saturday rest and Sunday final. Whichever side of the draw comes out the hat first should play QF Tuesday and that's that. Otherwise they are giving preferential treatment to nations and players. Tuesday QF would have extra day rest at some point on route to a final. A semi final on a Saturday would be a major disadvantage if that happens..

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Smudge226 wrote:
seagull wrote:
Looks like we may be on the Thursday as Novak has ATP finals week before
There shouldn't be any preferential scheduling, there isn't for any other DC week or weekend in the calendar.
The only fair way to schedule would be for two QF's on Tues and Wed, with SF Thurs and Fri, Saturday rest and Sunday final. Whichever side of the draw comes out the hat first should play QF Tuesday and that's that. Otherwise they are giving preferential treatment to nations and players. Tuesday QF would have extra day rest at some point on route to a final. A semi final on a Saturday would be a major disadvantage if that happens..

Im afraid it wont happen!

2022 schedule was this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Davis_Cup_Finals

Tues 22nd - NL v AUstralia

Wed 23rd - Spain v Croatia

Thurs 24th - Italy v USA and Germany v Canada

Semis

Fri 25th - Australia v Croatia (ie first two winners met)

Sat 26th - Italy v Canada (ie the two Thursday teams met)

Final

Sun 27th - Canada v Australia - ie Canada had no rest between semis and final and played there 3 ties over 4 days whereas Australia got an extra days rest before the final AND two days earlier in the event. However - Canada ended up winning

But I am afraid the schedule wont end up being fair on everyone

Toby · Lower Club Player

I presume players have to be lined up by their world ranking although given Norrie and Evans' form probably for the best.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

The BBC reporting it seems most likely we will end up with the Thursday, Saturday, Sunday route due to Novak D being in Turin.

And then looking at the team options in light of this as playing Dan twice each day will be a massive challenge in this circumstance

From the BBC

The schedule for the week is yet to be confirmed but it seems more than likely GB's quarter-final will be played on the Thursday to allow 24-time Grand Slam singles champion Djokovic more time to recover from the previous week's ATP Finals in Turin.

This means that were GB to make it to Sunday's final, they would have to play three ties in four days. Incredible though Evans was in winning two matches stretching over nearly five hours in Manchester on Sunday, asking him repeatedly to play two matches a day in such a small timeframe would seem both unrealistic and unwise.

His partnership with Skupski is very much the best doubles pairing of the team Smith selected for the group stage. Skupski and Andy Murray have never played together on tour or in Davis Cup, and Cameron Norrie and Jack Draper are unlikely to be considered for doubles. So unless Evans becomes a specialist doubles player for the week, another card-carrying member of the doubles tour may need to replace one of the singles players in the team.

The two names that spring to mind are Joe Salisbury and Jamie Murray.

Salisbury is the world number six and has won the US Open men's doubles title with Rajeev Ram in each of the last three years. He has won two ATP titles with Skupski, but the pair may still have painful memories of the 2021 Davis Cup quarter-final defeat by Germany, in which they lost seven points in a row from 5-0 up in the second-set tie-break.

Salisbury has won just two of his six Davis Cup matches to date, but could potentially also play with Andy Murray. They did lose both their matches in the group stage of the Finals in Glasgow last year, but looked a better partnership at the Tokyo Olympics before losing a tight quarter-final.

Jamie Murray is an interesting option. He has not played Davis Cup for four years, but he and Michael Venus are in contention to reach the ATP Finals as the winners of three titles this year. He played on tour with Skupski for an 18-month period and even though it was not a runaway success, they still won a title, contested two other finals and a US Open semi-final.

And when they played together in the Davis Cup Finals of 2021, they won their first two matches and then pushed Rafael Nadal and Feliciano Lopez close in a semi-final which took place in Madrid.

And how about Andy and Jamie playing together for their country one last time? It is a tantalising thought, but assumes Andy would still be selected in the event of a singles player making way for a doubles specialist.

Evans and Skupski appear certain to be selected, so who might miss out in that scenario?

The explosive youth of Draper, who won that crucial match with Australia's Thanasi Kokkinakis on his debut last week; Norrie, who has been comfortably the British number one for nearly two years now; or Murray, a Davis Cup winner with only three defeats in the 36 singles matches he has played for his country?

There is a lot of tennis to be played in Asia and on the European indoor circuit before Leon Smith has to finalise his team. The initial selection must be made by 23 October, but up to three changes are permitted until the eve of the knockout stage, and September's form book may be out of print by November.

Smudge226 · Strong Club Player

JonH comes home wrote:
The BBC reporting it seems most likely we will end up with the Thursday, Saturday, Sunday route due to Novak D being in Turin.

And then looking at the team options in light of this as playing Dan twice each day will be a massive challenge in this circumstance

From the BBC

The schedule for the week is yet to be confirmed but it seems more than likely GB's quarter-final will be played on the Thursday to allow 24-time Grand Slam singles champion Djokovic more time to recover from the previous week's ATP Finals in Turin.

This means that were GB to make it to Sunday's final, they would have to play three ties in four days. Incredible though Evans was in winning two matches stretching over nearly five hours in Manchester on Sunday, asking him repeatedly to play two matches a day in such a small timeframe would seem both unrealistic and unwise.

His partnership with Skupski is very much the best doubles pairing of the team Smith selected for the group stage. Skupski and Andy Murray have never played together on tour or in Davis Cup, and Cameron Norrie and Jack Draper are unlikely to be considered for doubles. So unless Evans becomes a specialist doubles player for the week, another card-carrying member of the doubles tour may need to replace one of the singles players in the team.

The two names that spring to mind are Joe Salisbury and Jamie Murray.

Salisbury is the world number six and has won the US Open men's doubles title with Rajeev Ram in each of the last three years. He has won two ATP titles with Skupski, but the pair may still have painful memories of the 2021 Davis Cup quarter-final defeat by Germany, in which they lost seven points in a row from 5-0 up in the second-set tie-break.

Salisbury has won just two of his six Davis Cup matches to date, but could potentially also play with Andy Murray. They did lose both their matches in the group stage of the Finals in Glasgow last year, but looked a better partnership at the Tokyo Olympics before losing a tight quarter-final.

Jamie Murray is an interesting option. He has not played Davis Cup for four years, but he and Michael Venus are in contention to reach the ATP Finals as the winners of three titles this year. He played on tour with Skupski for an 18-month period and even though it was not a runaway success, they still won a title, contested two other finals and a US Open semi-final.

And when they played together in the Davis Cup Finals of 2021, they won their first two matches and then pushed Rafael Nadal and Feliciano Lopez close in a semi-final which took place in Madrid.

And how about Andy and Jamie playing together for their country one last time? It is a tantalising thought, but assumes Andy would still be selected in the event of a singles player making way for a doubles specialist.

Evans and Skupski appear certain to be selected, so who might miss out in that scenario?

The explosive youth of Draper, who won that crucial match with Australia's Thanasi Kokkinakis on his debut last week; Norrie, who has been comfortably the British number one for nearly two years now; or Murray, a Davis Cup winner with only three defeats in the 36 singles matches he has played for his country?

There is a lot of tennis to be played in Asia and on the European indoor circuit before Leon Smith has to finalise his team. The initial selection must be made by 23 October, but up to three changes are permitted until the eve of the knockout stage, and September's form book may be out of print by November.

A competition can't favour an individual, that's ridiculous.. This needs to be drawn from a hat. If this was commercial it would go legal.

indiana · Tennis legend

What about Sinner too?

Even if not for ATP final reasons, as said above, TV scheduling could come into it.

It is the way of things. In individual tournaments players are often given a later day start after competing the previous week. In general tennis schedules are decided, not drawn

I don't think the ATP finals should be any issue for this team competition but I can't get myself worked up about it, other than feeling that Italy and Sinner should be treated the same as Serbia and Djokovic rather than anyone make assumptions as to how the ATP finals will go.

But do get it decided and announced ASAP.