Transgender Men in Women's Tennis

Steve J · Lower Club Player

RE: Transgender Men in Women's Tennis

Steve J · Lower Club Player

Andy Parker wrote:
I am sure though, at some stage when medical tests started to show up issues, that she did start to question her gender identity, but my point on intersex people remains - transgender people seek to change sex, intersex people do not - they are born with both male and female characteristics, which is not in any way their choice or fault - they effectively form a third sex and it is really difficult in how we deal with that.

Imane Khelif is male with a DSD, probably 5ARD.

There is no third sex.

-- Edited by Steve J on Friday 20th of December 2024 05:52:51 PM

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Just my tuppence worth, with views that have not changed since day 1 (although maybe, like emmsie, they have hardened):

People who are born male should not be allowed to compete in female sport.

The pre-puberty v post-puberty sex change argument is irrelevant.

The answer is no.

However, I agree with Andy Parker that I feel some sympathy for the Khelif family (and others with similar abnormalities).

This does not mean they should necessarily be allowed compete as a woman.

But I still feel sympathy and Andy P makes some good points.

Imane was brought up for 14-16 years or so as a girl.

In a society where female-male roles are very clearly defined.

It's no good saying she's a male with DSD, or 5ARD - that wasn't known - her family believed she was a girl at birth and for all of her childhood and brought her up as such. And she was therefore a girl in her own mind too.

Yes, she liked sport, and her father allowed soccer because he was at the thin edge of the wedge - and finally caved in and allowed boxing. But the photos of her at age 9, say, look like any other girl.

As she/he became more successful, and suspicions were raised during adolesence, a whole new game began to be played out - the authorities wanted to cash in, maybe her family too......

But none of that changes the fact that it must be very brutal for a mother, say, in that society to suddenly find that her 'daughter' is not marriagable as a daughter, nor as a son, that people are mocking them, or shunning them, or maybe just wanting money from them.

As said, no biological males should be allowed to compete/participate in female sport as far as I'm concerned. That includes males with abnormal chromosones. As well as the far bigger category of trans women.

But I can still feel sympathy for people such as Khelif and their families

And I do not blame them in the slightest for continuing to fight their fight (so to speak). After all, the IOC accepts Khelif so why should he/she decide differently?

For these people, it is complicated:

"The term differences in sex development, or DSD, is used to refer to a wide range of different scenarios, with the NHS describing it as a group of rare conditions involving genes, hormones and reproductive organs, including genitals which means a persons sex development is different to most other peoples.

Individuals can either have sex chromosomes generally linked with being female (XX chromosomes) or usually associated with being a man (XY chromosomes), yet have reproductive organs and genitals that may look different.

The NHS states that a person may have a womb and may also have testicles inside their body. Sometimes the testicles might not work properly.It adds: Some people with a very rare type of DSD have both ovarian and testicular tissue (sometimes one ovary and one testis). Their genitals may appear female or male or could look different from either.

The site tells a lot of stories of a 'woman', age 31, who had a normal vagina, a normal external female appearance, but did not have a uterus, and she also produced a lot of testosterone from her two testes, which were placed at the same place as the ovaries.

Sport has to have strict rules, as far as I'm concerned, because otherwise women are at greater risk of injury and will be discouraged and pushed to the sidelines.

But that doesn't exclude sympathy for those with complicated sex abnormalities with all the societal knock-on effects that has.

Andy Parker · Club Coach

I agree with what Coup says and I think your post was much more eloquent than mine.

I'm going to make this my last post on this topic, as things go round in circles and I've kind of said what I had to say, while noting lots of others views and believing that lots of others have some good points to make.

Firstly I would say to Steve J that even if you argue that sex is immutable and that you can't change sex (because presumably your chromosones will still be that of your biological birth), there are people who are in the category of intersex, which means they have chromosonal abnormalities and sometimes things like having both a vagina and internal testes. That means they are for point of simplicity called intersex, and once you start getting into the more scientific explanations for this, you can lose sight of the fact that they may have both male and female body parts, and I think for most of us, that makes them difficult to categorise.

I believe strongly that neither intersex people or transgender male to female people, whether pre-op or post op can be allowed to participate in female sport - that is what this thread was about and that is my unambiguous and unequivocal position

The key difference though between transgender and intersex is that those born intersex have not chosen to alter their gender from male to female or female to male and have not taken any drugs or treatment to do so - they are just born with both female and male body parts.

I think it also makes it complicated in how you class someone, who may have internal testes and a vagina, and although I think we have to exclude intersex people from competing in female sports, we do need to realise that intersex people do exist, and they exist not through choice but through biology. It means that binary definitions of what is male and female are actually more tricky, and if for instance you would say that someone who has vagina and internal testes is simply male because they have male chromosones, I think you are simplifying a really complex issue because it suits your ideology to do so.

Anyway those are my feelings - I'm from a boxing background (boxers and boxing coaches from both sides of my biological family, and I have inherited the family freak build of being 5 foot 9 but always weighing under ten stone) Anyway I'm an ex journalist, so when the Khelifa story broke, I very much wanted to know the truth of what was happening. I felt so sorry for Khelifa's opponents and felt that this issue should have been resolved way before the Olympic tournament - tests should have been done and if Khelifa has male chromosones, which I think is likely (but not certain), then Khelifa should have been banned from competing in the female category - but as Coup correctly says, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have sympathy for someone who was born with a vagina and spent her whole childhood assuming she was a normal woman, and who would then have her whole dreams of being a champion boxer snatched away from her.

For me, there are 2 sets of victims in this case - the numerous female boxers in Khelifa'x weight category, who were denied a fair chance of winning a gold medal, and Khelifa herself, as when a sportsperson is found to be intersex, then cannot be allowed to compete in female categories, but that means their whole life is wrecked, their dreams shattered and probably they will be regarded as a freak for the rest of their life.

Anyway those are my thoughts - I don't wish to offend anyone else and I have said what I think, and the range of opinions is one of the things that makes forums interesting and adds to the rich tapestry of life.

These days as a semi-retired person, I work a few hours part-time in a petrol station, and as someone who is naturally outgoing and chatty, I love the fact that one minute I can be talking to someone fabulously rich with an amazing lifestyle and rich person's views, and then next minute I can be talking to someone working class, heavily tattooed and pierced, with a completely different outlook on life. The fact that we are so diverse and heterogeneous in the UK, I think is to be celebrated, and our acceptance of diversity and non conformity is not a sign of decedence of weakness, but that we are a thoughtful and progressive nation.

Andy Parker · Club Coach

Sent this post accidentally twice and not sure how to delete it - technology was one of the main reasons I left journalism - it kept moving forward but I didn't.

-- Edited by Andy Parker on Saturday 21st of December 2024 12:40:50 AM

emmsie69 · Top national player

I have sympathy for the teenage Caster's and Khelif's, going through puberty and discovering that something was amiss. I do not have sympathy for them as adults knowing their situation and still trying to gaslight us. I am in no doubt that Khelif (and his family) knew he was Male years ago and at the absolute latest, in 2021. Almost certainly he was scouted precisely because someone suspected that he did have a DSD. There is too much money at stake for that not to be the case. Scouts actively look for potential candidates and then double down on us when we rightly complain.
CD is right that a lot of the fault lies with the IOC in that their rules do allow for this situation. (and another trying to gaslight us)
With any luck Seb Coe will be the next president and rectify this.
He hasn't quite gone far enough yet, but hopefully will.
Bring back chromosomal testing once anyone starts competing Nationally and all these issues can be dealt with privately as they absolutely should be.
I'd love to know how many Women with Swyers are currently competing. For all intent and purposes, outwardly, they are Female, no one would know that they carry a y chromosome but there is a feeling that they still have an advantage from that y chromosome.

If anyone is interested, look up Emma Hilton and Cathy Devine.

Steve J · Lower Club Player

emmsie69 wrote:
I do not have sympathy for them as adults knowing their situation and still trying to gaslight us. I am in no doubt that Khelif (and his family) knew he was Male years ago and at the absolute latest, in 2021. Almost certainly he was scouted precisely because someone suspected that he did have a DSD. There is too much money at stake for that not to be the case. Scouts actively look for potential candidates and then double down on us when we rightly complain.
CD is right that a lot of the fault lies with the IOC in that their rules do allow for this situation. (and another trying to gaslight us)

Agreed.

Steve J · Lower Club Player

Andy Parker wrote:
Firstly I would say to Steve J that even if you argue that sex is immutable and that you can't change sex (because presumably your chromosones will still be that of your biological birth), there are people who are in the category of intersex, which means they have chromosonal abnormalities and sometimes things like having both a vagina and internal testes. That means they are for point of simplicity called intersex, and once you start getting into the more scientific explanations for this, you can lose sight of the fact that they may have both male and female body parts, and I think for most of us, that makes them difficult to categorise.

Intersex is an old fashioned term. The modern term is Differences of Sex Development.

The only male DSD athletes that I have any sympathy for are the ones who chose to complete in men's events once their condition is explained to them.