Transgender Men in Women's Tennis

Steve J · Lower Club Player

RE: Transgender Men in Women's Tennis

Steve J · Lower Club Player

Bob in Spain wrote:
I was just getting my head around this 'Intersex' thing, but now he/she is some kind of fish ?

But not the sort of fish that can change sex.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

The most famous tennis case was of course Renee Richards back in the 70's. Who reached a US Open third round and the final of the US Open Women's Doubles back in 1977, and a US Open mixed doubles semi as well in 79. She had previously played mens singles at US Open's back in the period 1953 to 1960 , as an amateur male. She reached the top 20 in 1979 in the women's game.

(from wiki) Richards has since expressed ambivalence about her legacy, and came to believe her past as a man provided her with advantages over her competitors, saying "Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I'd had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I've reconsidered my opinion."[22][23]

emmsie69 · ATP level

Of course it's been an issue for far longer than Caster has been around but it was that situation that really highlighted it to the general public. Then we had the delightful Rachel McKinnon/Veronica Ivy in cycling and it's snowballed from there.
This is from Rugby highlighting the advantages Men have over Women

Biological differences
Significant increases in total body mass
Significant increases in lean/muscle mass and muscle density
Reduction in body fat mass, improving strength and power-to-weight ratio
Increased height, changed dimensions of important levers, greater bone density
Increased haemoglobin levels
Increased heart and lung size

Resultant performance differences
Significantly greater strength (between 50% and 60% percent by adulthood, with relatively greater upper body strength)
Significant speed advantages (between 10% and 15% over various durations)
Greater capacity to produce force/power (advantages of between 30% and 40% in explosive movement capabilities)
Strength-to-weight and power-to weight advantages (even after adjusting for mass, height and similar level of performance (elite, untrained etc), males have a 30-40% strength advantage)

For the record absolutely none of my information comes from GB News:)

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Steve J wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
I realise that threads are organic and have a life of their own but I'm going to say again that I think Caster is a red herring.
The root of the issue with both trans identified males and males with 5ARD in women's sports is the same. Both groups have the advantage of testosterone fuelled male puberty. The advantage that women's sports are supposed to exclude.
I agree that the USTA (and ITF and LTA) need to sort out their policies in this area. Women at all levels are entitled to fair sport.
I wonder how long it would take the WTA to change their policy if a male with an ATP ranking inside, say, 500 transitioned...

For the amateur USTA policy, I thought that it would be interesting if a whole bunch of men entered a women's tournament, signing the self-declaration policy (and independently telling the other entrants what they were doing).

And then the Georgia Womens Open (or whatever) would (almost certainly) have a final with two blokes.

Again, this is not to be flippant about transwomen but just to highlight the ludicrous nature of the rules. I actually think the partners of some of the women should do exactly that.

Steve J · Lower Club Player

Coup Droit wrote:
For the amateur USTA policy, I thought that it would be interesting if a whole bunch of men entered a women's tournament, signing the self-declaration policy (and independently telling the other entrants what they were doing).

IIRC that happened in a Canadian Powerlifting event. A male coach entered to stop a transwoman winning and to highlight how ridiculous the rules are.

https://nypost.com/2023/03/30/male-powerlifter-enters-womens-event-breaks-record/

-- Edited by Steve J on Friday 11th of August 2023 12:41:26 PM

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Steve J wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
I realise that threads are organic and have a life of their own but I'm going to say again that I think Caster is a red herring.
The root of the issue with both trans identified males and males with 5ARD in women's sports is the same. Both groups have the advantage of testosterone fuelled male puberty. The advantage that women's sports are supposed to exclude.
I agree that the USTA (and ITF and LTA) need to sort out their policies in this area. Women at all levels are entitled to fair sport.
I wonder how long it would take the WTA to change their policy if a male with an ATP ranking inside, say, 500 transitioned...

Of course, the ATP and mens locker-room is almost as bad an environment as football for someone to share their sexual or gender identity. I dont think any active male player has come out as gay (ever?) and certainly not since the days of Bill Tilden back in the day. Gottfried von Cramm as well. But these are back in the 30's. That is almost impossible to see happening right now for whatever reason but sheer statistics would suggest a number of the top 500 men will be gay.

I imagine it is equally unlikely that any male player in the top 500 would be likely to transition (even if there was someone who would be inclined to transition or consider it). You never know but it seems highly unlikely!

Elegant Point · Satellite level

Coup Droit wrote:
Steve J wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
I realise that threads are organic and have a life of their own but I'm going to say again that I think Caster is a red herring.
The root of the issue with both trans identified males and males with 5ARD in women's sports is the same. Both groups have the advantage of testosterone fuelled male puberty. The advantage that women's sports are supposed to exclude.
I agree that the USTA (and ITF and LTA) need to sort out their policies in this area. Women at all levels are entitled to fair sport.
I wonder how long it would take the WTA to change their policy if a male with an ATP ranking inside, say, 500 transitioned...
For the amateur USTA policy, I thought that it would be interesting if a whole bunch of men entered a women's tournament, signing the self-declaration policy (and independently telling the other entrants what they were doing).
And then the Georgia Womens Open (or whatever) would (almost certainly) have a final with two blokes.
Again, this is not to be flippant about transwomen but just to highlight the ludicrous nature of the rules. I actually think the partners of some of the women should do exactly that.

Some states eg Texas are challenging the ruling for college sports:

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott has said he would support legislation prohibiting transgender men from competing on mens college sports teams and transgender women from joining womens college athletic teams.

Last month, the U.S. House of Representatives approved a bill that would amend Title IX to require student athletes to participate on sports teams based on their sex assigned at birth. The legislation is unlikely to pass in the U.S. Senate, where Democrats have narrow control.

https://www.texastribune.org/2023/05/26/texas-college-transgender-athletes/