Transgender Men in Women's Tennis

Steve J · Lower Club Player

RE: Transgender Men in Women's Tennis

Steve J · Lower Club Player

Bob in Spain wrote:
I was just getting my head around this 'Intersex' thing, but now he/she is some kind of fish ?

But not the sort of fish that can change sex.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

The most famous tennis case was of course Renee Richards back in the 70's. Who reached a US Open third round and the final of the US Open Women's Doubles back in 1977, and a US Open mixed doubles semi as well in 79. She had previously played mens singles at US Open's back in the period 1953 to 1960 , as an amateur male. She reached the top 20 in 1979 in the women's game.

(from wiki) Richards has since expressed ambivalence about her legacy, and came to believe her past as a man provided her with advantages over her competitors, saying "Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I'd had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I've reconsidered my opinion."[22][23]

emmsie69 · Top national player

Of course it's been an issue for far longer than Caster has been around but it was that situation that really highlighted it to the general public. Then we had the delightful Rachel McKinnon/Veronica Ivy in cycling and it's snowballed from there.
This is from Rugby highlighting the advantages Men have over Women

Biological differences
Significant increases in total body mass
Significant increases in lean/muscle mass and muscle density
Reduction in body fat mass, improving strength and power-to-weight ratio
Increased height, changed dimensions of important levers, greater bone density
Increased haemoglobin levels
Increased heart and lung size

Resultant performance differences
Significantly greater strength (between 50% and 60% percent by adulthood, with relatively greater upper body strength)
Significant speed advantages (between 10% and 15% over various durations)
Greater capacity to produce force/power (advantages of between 30% and 40% in explosive movement capabilities)
Strength-to-weight and power-to weight advantages (even after adjusting for mass, height and similar level of performance (elite, untrained etc), males have a 30-40% strength advantage)

For the record absolutely none of my information comes from GB News:)

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Steve J wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
I realise that threads are organic and have a life of their own but I'm going to say again that I think Caster is a red herring.
The root of the issue with both trans identified males and males with 5ARD in women's sports is the same. Both groups have the advantage of testosterone fuelled male puberty. The advantage that women's sports are supposed to exclude.
I agree that the USTA (and ITF and LTA) need to sort out their policies in this area. Women at all levels are entitled to fair sport.
I wonder how long it would take the WTA to change their policy if a male with an ATP ranking inside, say, 500 transitioned...

For the amateur USTA policy, I thought that it would be interesting if a whole bunch of men entered a women's tournament, signing the self-declaration policy (and independently telling the other entrants what they were doing).

And then the Georgia Womens Open (or whatever) would (almost certainly) have a final with two blokes.

Again, this is not to be flippant about transwomen but just to highlight the ludicrous nature of the rules. I actually think the partners of some of the women should do exactly that.

Steve J · Lower Club Player

Coup Droit wrote:
For the amateur USTA policy, I thought that it would be interesting if a whole bunch of men entered a women's tournament, signing the self-declaration policy (and independently telling the other entrants what they were doing).

IIRC that happened in a Canadian Powerlifting event. A male coach entered to stop a transwoman winning and to highlight how ridiculous the rules are.

https://nypost.com/2023/03/30/male-powerlifter-enters-womens-event-breaks-record/

-- Edited by Steve J on Friday 11th of August 2023 12:41:26 PM

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Steve J wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
I realise that threads are organic and have a life of their own but I'm going to say again that I think Caster is a red herring.
The root of the issue with both trans identified males and males with 5ARD in women's sports is the same. Both groups have the advantage of testosterone fuelled male puberty. The advantage that women's sports are supposed to exclude.
I agree that the USTA (and ITF and LTA) need to sort out their policies in this area. Women at all levels are entitled to fair sport.
I wonder how long it would take the WTA to change their policy if a male with an ATP ranking inside, say, 500 transitioned...

Of course, the ATP and mens locker-room is almost as bad an environment as football for someone to share their sexual or gender identity. I dont think any active male player has come out as gay (ever?) and certainly not since the days of Bill Tilden back in the day. Gottfried von Cramm as well. But these are back in the 30's. That is almost impossible to see happening right now for whatever reason but sheer statistics would suggest a number of the top 500 men will be gay.

I imagine it is equally unlikely that any male player in the top 500 would be likely to transition (even if there was someone who would be inclined to transition or consider it). You never know but it seems highly unlikely!

Elegant Point · Satellite level

Coup Droit wrote:
Steve J wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
I realise that threads are organic and have a life of their own but I'm going to say again that I think Caster is a red herring.
The root of the issue with both trans identified males and males with 5ARD in women's sports is the same. Both groups have the advantage of testosterone fuelled male puberty. The advantage that women's sports are supposed to exclude.
I agree that the USTA (and ITF and LTA) need to sort out their policies in this area. Women at all levels are entitled to fair sport.
I wonder how long it would take the WTA to change their policy if a male with an ATP ranking inside, say, 500 transitioned...
For the amateur USTA policy, I thought that it would be interesting if a whole bunch of men entered a women's tournament, signing the self-declaration policy (and independently telling the other entrants what they were doing).
And then the Georgia Womens Open (or whatever) would (almost certainly) have a final with two blokes.
Again, this is not to be flippant about transwomen but just to highlight the ludicrous nature of the rules. I actually think the partners of some of the women should do exactly that.

Some states eg Texas are challenging the ruling for college sports:

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott has said he would support legislation prohibiting transgender men from competing on mens college sports teams and transgender women from joining womens college athletic teams.

Last month, the U.S. House of Representatives approved a bill that would amend Title IX to require student athletes to participate on sports teams based on their sex assigned at birth. The legislation is unlikely to pass in the U.S. Senate, where Democrats have narrow control.

https://www.texastribune.org/2023/05/26/texas-college-transgender-athletes/

Steve J · Lower Club Player

LTA publishes new Transgender and Non-binary Policy

www.lta.org.uk/news/lta-publishes-new-transgender-and-non-binary-policy/

Helen40 · Grand Slam Champion

Steve J wrote:
LTA publishes new Transgender and Non-binary Policy

www.lta.org.uk/news/lta-publishes-new-transgender-and-non-binary-policy/

That's an interesting read, and falls in line with my own views. I was wondering what the policy was before?

Steve J · Lower Club Player

Helen40 wrote:
Steve J wrote:
LTA publishes new Transgender and Non-binary Policy

www.lta.org.uk/news/lta-publishes-new-transgender-and-non-binary-policy/
That's an interesting read, and falls in line with my own views. I was wondering what the policy was before?

IIRC, it was based on testosterone.

If I was feeling picky, I would moan about the use of the word "assign".

Andy Parker · Club Coach

I was fascinated tor read through all the posts over the last couple of years and as more has been posted recently have decided to raise my head above the parapet and give my twopence worth. I think most of us are scared to enter any debates on trans issues, in the same way as we are on gender, sexuality, race or disability, as it inevitably ends up with lots of people feeling others are bigoted, backward or ill informed.

The first thing I thought when reading all the posts was that it was very unhelpful to mix those with chromosonal abnormalities up with those who are transgender. When I think of competitors like Semanaya or the Olympic boxer Khelifa, I think what you tend to find on delving a little deeper into those who are born intersex is that if they end up in elite sport, it is because they have come from 3rd world countries with rudimentary medical facilities, which means that their intersex condition is not realised until they undergo drug testing, once they are in elite conditions. I think that eliciting the truth from Khelifa's story is that she was brought up in a tiny village in the middle of nowhere in Algeria and so because she appeared to have a vagina and not a penis, she was therefore brought up as a girl, and her father who was a shepherd and blacksmith and mother a housewife, did not realise anything was abnormal. When she wanted to take up boxing at the gym at the next village, she soon became the victim of gossip that she was having an affair with the coach, and so moved to Algiers (as it was clear she was talented) and then her career took off stratospherically. Then she was tested for drugs and the testosterone levels were abnormal and then everyone started to realise there was a problem.

For me, stories like Semanaya's and Khelifa's are that of human tragedy - they did not know they were not biologically female, they spent their whole lives thinking they were female, but once identified as intersex, for me, they cannot then compete in female categories, but nonetheless despite banning them because of the biological advantages that Emmsie has listed in her posts, we need to treat those athletes with respect and feel their pain.

For me those who have decided to change the sex they were born with is a completely different issue and we also need to be really clear about dividing our conversation and views depending on whether someone is transitioning from male into female (and therefore still has a penis) and those who have undergone gender re-assignment surgery.

For me, those who have undergone surgery and 'changed sex', then should have the right to use female changing rooms and toilets and to be called by a female name, to be treated as female then in law, but for their history as ex-males to be there for authorities to see, in cases of sex offending or other crimes. The elite sport though has to be closed to them - the biological advantages or differences which they gained as being male at birth cannot be negated after surgery - so can a male to female trans person compete as an athlete, boxer or tennis player in individual sports - in my opinion, absolutely not, and as Emmsie and others like Sharon Davies, Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova say, it is grossly unfair on biologically female women.

As for team sports - a slightly more grey area in my opinion, but even there I feel that the biological advantage that someone has, who has transitioned from male to female, really means that in elite sport, trans people who have undergone gender re-assignment surgery should not be allowed to compete as women. I think it is unfortunately one of the prices they pay for changing their sex - that they are then banned from competing in elite sport in their new chosen gender.

For those transitioning from male to female and who therefore still have penises, I think we also need to be really wary of trans rights - uses of toilets and changing rooms - there have been quite a few cases of rapes and sexual assaults by trans women on biological women and I feel that the issue of women having safe spaces is more important than trans rights - ideally all large organisations should have gender neutral facilities to overcome this - so to be clear - male facilities for biological men and those who have undergone sex-change surgery to become men, female for biologically female (including those who have undergone gender re-assignment surgery) and gender neutral for those who are transitioning or don't identify as male or female.

I feel that although it may feel harsh or unfair to trans people, it is important to distinguish between those who have changed sex should have equal rights in housing, employment and marriage - where we should legislate for complete equality - and sport, which will always remain an anomaly, because the chromosones we have at birth mean differences which can never be eradicated.

I think the issues call for clarity and simplicity - and a lot of the authorities seem to have lost sight of this, often because they want to be seen to be inclusive and in favour of diversity, and so end up on the wrong side of debates because they are frightened of being called bigots or backward.

-- Edited by Andy Parker on Thursday 19th of December 2024 02:04:14 AM

-- Edited by Andy Parker on Thursday 19th of December 2024 02:05:39 AM

-- Edited by Andy Parker on Thursday 19th of December 2024 02:09:57 AM

-- Edited by Andy Parker on Thursday 19th of December 2024 02:30:13 AM

emmsie69 · Top national player

Thank goodness for people that are willing to be called Bigot, Terf or backward. Without those people none of this would be happening.
My views have hardened over the years from the usual 'it's not hurting anyone/me so what's the problem through 'I'm willing to accept Men that have medically/surgically transitioned' to my current 'No Biological Men in Women's spaces/Sports etc under any circumstances.
I'm done with it and I am proud to raise my head above the parapet. I have educated myself and I don't like what I've discovered.
No one is born in the wrong body and even when Men 'transition' they still retain Male rates of offending and Male behaviour.
If you have a y chromosome you are a Man no matter what Mengelian like surgeries you go through and believe me, if anyone on here actually looks into these surgeries you will be horrified.
Doctors are not allowed to remove healthy limbs as it is unethical so I'm not sure how it became ethical to remove healthy sexual organs.
Trans and DSDs are indeed 2 separate issues but neither belong in Women's single Sex sports an they shouldn't take a Women's spot in mixed sport either.
I also think you are being terribly naive Andy if you think Khalif didn't know he was a biological Man by the time the Olympics came around, I have zero sympathy for someone trying to gaslight us all into believing he is Female.

emmsie69 · Top national player

Steve J wrote:
Helen40 wrote:
Steve J wrote:
LTA publishes new Transgender and Non-binary Policy

www.lta.org.uk/news/lta-publishes-new-transgender-and-non-binary-policy/
That's an interesting read, and falls in line with my own views. I was wondering what the policy was before?
IIRC, it was based on testosterone.
If I was feeling picky, I would moan about the use of the word "assign".

I don't think it goes far enough. It should be all LTA competitions. In fact it should be all competitions at all levels above the most Junior. It's hard enough to keep Girls in sport as it is and there is also the issue of Women from communities that can't mix with Male-Bodied people being excluded.

Andy Parker · Club Coach

emmsie69 wrote:
Thank goodness for people that are willing to be called Bigot, Terf or backward. Without those people none of this would be happening.
My views have hardened over the years from the usual 'it's not hurting anyone/me so what's the problem through 'I'm willing to accept Men that have medically/surgically transitioned' to my current 'No Biological Men in Women's spaces/Sports etc under any circumstances.
I'm done with it and I am proud to raise my head above the parapet. I have educated myself and I don't like what I've discovered.
No one is born in the wrong body and even when Men 'transition' they still retain Male rates of offending and Male behaviour.
If you have a y chromosome you are a Man no matter what Mengelian like surgeries you go through and believe me, if anyone on here actually looks into these surgeries you will be horrified.
Doctors are not allowed to remove healthy limbs as it is unethical so I'm not sure how it became ethical to remove healthy sexual organs.
Trans and DSDs are indeed 2 separate issues but neither belong in Women's single Sex sports an they shouldn't take a Women's spot in mixed sport either.
I also think you are being terribly naive Andy if you think Khalif didn't know he was a biological Man by the time the Olympics came around, I have zero sympathy for someone trying to gaslight us all into believing he is Female.

I understand your views and they are closer to mine than several other posters on this forum

I do though disagree with you about some people feeling they are born in the wrong body - I don't think it applies to every trans person attempting to transition and then undergo gender re-assignment surgery. A lot of the time, I tend to wonder if some trans people are just gay, but feel the stigma attached to that label and therefore find it easier to say that they are born in the wrong body and wish to change sex. I also think that others are just facing the confusion that puberty and teenage years bring, where they are trying to find themselves - work out who they are, what their character is and who they are attracted to - in liberal households, they may be encouraged to do this by parents, and in strict ones, sometimes I think it can bring about a massive rebellion from the child, which can manifest in them coming out as trans.

Despite feeling that many children who really feel they are trans, are actually confused or 'going through a phase', I do disagree with you and think that there are some people who really strongly believe that they are born in the wrong body - and if they do strongly believe in that for any length of time, who am I to disagree.

With Khelifa, I don't believe I am being gullible - she was from a tiny village with less than a thousand inhabitants - she is likely to have had a home birth, as is the custom in these places and she would probably have seldom seen a doctor in her early years, other than probably visits from official agencies to give medical jabs. I have travelled to nearly 100 countries over the years, and all I can say is that life in a village in Algeria is a world away from our culture and civilisation. Did she feel like she was butch and not a typical girl - yes I am sure she did, and I am sure it called for a lot of soul searching and heartachefrom her family when she decided to take up boxing, but I suspect she just thought she was a tough, butch girl, and when she went to the gym in Algiers, no doubt she met other similar girls and it probably would have made her feel a lot less abnormal than she would have felt in a small village in the middle of nowhere, where no doubt very traditional views prevail.

I am sure though, at some stage when medical tests started to show up issues, that she did start to question her gender identity, but my point on intersex people remains - transgender people seek to change sex, intersex people do not - they are born with both male and female characteristics, which is not in any way their choice or fault - they effectively form a third sex and it is really difficult in how we deal with that.

Anyway I am happy to disagree - I regard myself as a very strident feminist, and I agree with you wholeheartedly that it is really important to defend women's rights from being disregarded in the attempt to be kind to trans people.