Transgender Men in Women's Tennis

Steve J · Lower Club Player

RE: Transgender Men in Women's Tennis

Steve J · Lower Club Player

Barefoot wrote:
As a rule transgender men is a term used to refer to those who have transitioned to become women - its basically suggesting that they can only ever be men due to their birth, despite any changes they have gone through or how they identify. Its used by those who would class themselves as gender critical, ie against transgender women having the same treatment/spaces as cis, or birth women.

Stonewall define 'Transgender man' as

"A term used to describe someone who is assigned female at birth but identifies and lives as a man. This may be shortened to trans man, or FTM, an abbreviation for female-to-male."

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/list-lgbtq-terms

Crispy · Intermediate Club Player

Steve J wrote:
Barefoot wrote:
I dont think Crispy was suggesting she was, she is intersex and defined female at birth. More that her biological differences have made her an unwanted Guinea pig for different regulations.
Crispy said that the fuss around Semenya is an example of policing women's bodies. It isn't. It is because Semenya has male advantage, an advantage that the female category exists to exclude.

My point being that intersex people are an example of where human being's can't neatly fit into categories of sex. Even describing Semenya as 'basically a man who didn't grow a penis' is over-simplifying.

As a side note - It's good to hear this debate expressed on this forum with the dignity and respect maintained for trans people. It has been an incredibly sensitive topic, and understand how many people have felt like it's a difficult topic to discuss - whether online or with friends and family.

Barefoot · Lower Club Player

Steve J wrote:
Barefoot wrote:
As a rule transgender men is a term used to refer to those who have transitioned to become women - its basically suggesting that they can only ever be men due to their birth, despite any changes they have gone through or how they identify. Its used by those who would class themselves as gender critical, ie against transgender women having the same treatment/spaces as cis, or birth women.
Stonewall define 'Transgender man' as
"A term used to describe someone who is assigned female at birth but identifies and lives as a man. This may be shortened to trans man, or FTM, an abbreviation for female-to-male."
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/list-lgbtq-terms

To be super clear I would agree with Stonewallbut the OP is using it to describe those born in a male body.

It is also nice to hear this topic discussed without everyone shouting at each other!

emmsie69 · ATP level

Caster Semenya is a Man. They have 46xy 5- ARD which only affects Males. Caster is not Trans but regardless is depriving biological Women of opportunities. All 3 podium squatters in the Rio 800m final had the same DSD. That's 3 women that didn't get selected for the Olympics because a Man took their place.
This is a Men's rights movement that depends on closing down debate.

KK · Club Coach

emmsie69 wrote:
Caster Semenya is a Man. They have 46xy 5- ARD which only affects Males. Caster is not Trans but regardless is depriving biological Women of opportunities. All 3 podium squatters in the Rio 800m final had the same DSD. That's 3 women that didn't get selected for the Olympics because a Man took their place.
This is a Men's rights movement that depends on closing down debate.

I used to feel sorry for Caster Semenya on the basis that it must be very difficult not being sure about your gender. However, once she had won her Olympic gold medal the kind and moral thing to do would have been to rest on her laurels and retire. It was incredibly selfish to carry on and deprive all those women without her advantages the chance to compete on a level playing field.

dodrade · Satellite level

KK wrote:
emmsie69 wrote:
Caster Semenya is a Man. They have 46xy 5- ARD which only affects Males. Caster is not Trans but regardless is depriving biological Women of opportunities. All 3 podium squatters in the Rio 800m final had the same DSD. That's 3 women that didn't get selected for the Olympics because a Man took their place.
This is a Men's rights movement that depends on closing down debate.
I used to feel sorry for Caster Semenya on the basis that it must be very difficult not being sure about your gender. However, once she had won her Olympic gold medal the kind and moral thing to do would have been to rest on her laurels and retire. It was incredibly selfish to carry on and deprive all those women without her advantages the chance to compete on a level playing field.

It was quite obvious too in a lot of her races she was holding back so as to not make her advantage over the rest of the field even more blatant.

Jaggy1876 · Grand Slam Champion

Caster Semenya is not a man. Some truly false information here. The correct term is intersex.

Steve J · Lower Club Player

Jaggy1876 wrote:
Caster Semenya is not a man. Some truly false information here. The correct term is intersex.

Intersex (an old fashioned term beloved by TRAs, DSD is the more modern term) people are still male or female although some may be difficult to classify. As I said above, Semenya has 5ARD. This is known because Semenya made it public when they went to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

"5-alpha reductase deficiency is a condition that affects male sexual development before birth and during puberty. People with this condition are genetically male, with one X and one Y chromosome in each cell, and they have male gonads (testes). Their bodies, however, do not produce enough of a hormone called dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT has a critical role in male sexual development, and a shortage of this hormone disrupts the formation of the external sex organs before birth."

https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/5-alpha-reductase-deficiency/

emmsie69 · ATP level

Jaggy1876 wrote:
Caster Semenya is not a man. Some truly false information here. The correct term is intersex.

Showing your ignorance again. Casters Semenya's particular DSD is listed in the IAAF document and ONLY affects Males. Caster is unequivocally a biological Man

CAS_Award_-_redacted_-_Semenya_ASA_IAAF.pdf (tas-cas.org) point 68 on page 15

Intersex is also known as VSC - Variables of Sexual Characteristics, DSD - Differences of Sexual Development. DSD can also be interpreted as Disorders of Sexual Development but I'm pretty sure most Intersex people would not like to be referred to in that way.

Whichever way you cut it anyone Intersex is still either a biological Woman or a biological Man. How they appear or present is irrelevant.

-- Edited by emmsie69 on Friday 11th of August 2023 07:54:52 AM

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

I realise that threads are organic and have a life of their own but I'm going to say again that I think Caster is a red herring.

The United State Tennis Association says that a man can go and play in any women's only amateur tennis tournament if they sign a declaration that they identify as a woman.

This is not a rare medical condition (as per Caster); this is an active policy choice that affects all women's events

-- Edited by Coup Droit on Friday 11th of August 2023 08:10:55 AM

emmsie69 · ATP level

Coup Droit wrote:
I realise that threads are organic and have a life of their own but I'm going to say again that I think Caster is a red herring.

The United State Tennis Association says that a man can go and play in any women's only amateur tennis tournament if they sign a declaration that they identify as a woman.

This is not a rare medical condition (as per Caster); this is an active policy choice that affects all women's events

-- Edited by Coup Droit on Friday 11th of August 2023 08:10:55 AM

I think Caster (although not their particular situation) is relevant because they were the primary trigger for this issue 14 years ago and it's still not resolved, if anything it's getting worse. Although this is a tennis forum it is important to realise that the USTA attitude to Women's amateur sport is actually replicated in nearly all sports leading to Women and Girls self excluding.

It's a point Sharron Davies has been highlighting.

It's particularly a problem in religious communities where women are forbidden from mixing with Males outside of their family.

ETA

To highlight the impact in other sports

The link below has a letter from a Muslim Woman to a leader in a Tag Rugby training session which highlights what is happening and how it affects biological Women.

F23Y9x5WEAA31Wp (680×651) (twimg.com)

-- Edited by emmsie69 on Friday 11th of August 2023 08:36:44 AM

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

Coup Droit wrote:
I realise that threads are organic and have a life of their own but I'm going to say again that I think Caster is a red herring.

The United State Tennis Association says that a man can go and play in any women's only amateur tennis tournament if they sign a declaration that they identify as a woman.

This is not a rare medical condition (as per Caster); this is an active policy choice that affects all women's events

-- Edited by Coup Droit on Friday 11th of August 2023 08:10:55 AM

I was just getting my head around this 'Intersex' thing, but now he/she is some kind of fish ?

Human race is evolving faster than I thought wink

-- Edited by Bob in Spain on Friday 11th of August 2023 08:35:29 AM

Steve J · Lower Club Player

Coup Droit wrote:
I realise that threads are organic and have a life of their own but I'm going to say again that I think Caster is a red herring.

The root of the issue with both trans identified males and males with 5ARD in women's sports is the same. Both groups have the advantage of testosterone fuelled male puberty. The advantage that women's sports are supposed to exclude.

I agree that the USTA (and ITF and LTA) need to sort out their policies in this area. Women at all levels are entitled to fair sport.

I wonder how long it would take the WTA to change their policy if a male with an ATP ranking inside, say, 500 transitioned...

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Bob in Spain wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
I realise that threads are organic and have a life of their own but I'm going to say again that I think Caster is a red herring.

The United State Tennis Association says that a man can go and play in any women's only amateur tennis tournament if they sign a declaration that they identify as a woman.

This is not a rare medical condition (as per Caster); this is an active policy choice that affects all women's events

-- Edited by Coup Droit on Friday 11th of August 2023 08:10:55 AM
I was just getting my head around this 'Intersex' thing, but now he/she is some kind of fish ?
Human race is evolving faster than I thought

-- Edited by Bob in Spain on Friday 11th of August 2023 08:35:29 AM

I liked this Bob, well done!! biggrin