Transgender Men in Women's Tennis

Barefoot · Lower Club Player

RE: Transgender Men in Women's Tennis

Steve J · Lower Club Player

Bob in Spain wrote:
legaleagle wrote:
Trans women are women
There are no easy answers and no way to keep everyone happy. But if a trans woman has spent a large part of her life as a man before transitioning, she will undoubtedly have physical attributes that CIS women cannot attain without 'chemical help' which is banned.

There is an easy answer. Female and open categories.

It doesn't require a man to have spent a large amount of his life pre 'living as a woman' (whatever that means) to have a physical advantage over women. All it requires is male puberty (World Aquatics went for the start of puberty when they updated their trans rules).

Some people regard 'cis woman' as insulting. Women are not a subset of their sex class.

Steve J · Lower Club Player

Another reference.

The Sports' Council Equality Group guidance on this subject -
equalityinsport.org/docs/300921/Guidance%20for%20Transgender%20Inclusion%20in%20Domestic%20Sport%202021.pdf

Steve J · Lower Club Player

Clarity matters: how placating lobbyists obscures public understanding of sex and gender, Murray Blackburn Mackenzie

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2023/08/07/clarity-matters-how-placating-lobbyists-obscures-public-understanding-of-sex-and-gender/

"This blog describes the results of polling we commissioned to test how well people understand what the terms 'transgender woman' and 'trans woman' tell them about a person's sex. The findings show that there is substantial confusion about these terms, especially 'trans woman'. They raise questions about how far organisations have adopted these as everyday terms, requiring little additional explanation, without taking an interest in how clearly understood they are."

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Im a 58 year old man and seldom step into discussions around this whole issue and related issues, I find terminology and accepted use of words confusing and, being frank, put me off expressing a view in fear of getting shot down. My daughter is 21 and the minute we stray into discussion of this area, I get told Im using the wrong language, phrase and get shouted at. I back off to avoid confrontation or looking like a -ist (fill in the blank) as opposed to someone who is behind the curve.

We look after a 101 year old lady who we started providing support for at the start of Covid. She is amazing and lovely and lucid. However, her language and phraseology around people of different racial and national back grounds makes me groan. But really it is no different to how I am with this whole area - the world moves on and it is hard to keep up with what is acceptable, what you can and cant say, even if you mean no harm or derogatory comment.

It is obviously up to each of us to educate ourselves but sometimes it is hard.

Crispy · Intermediate Club Player

I am a firm believer that trans women are women, however I think there is never going to be an easy answer in regards to sport.
All bodies in sport are policed, but none more than women's sport. The awful and sad case of Caster Semenya is a prime example. I would love to see and would like to work towards a world where trans women are free to compete, but inequalities have always existed - whether that be access, prize money, financial support. These are issues which need addressing too.

Steve J · Lower Club Player

Crispy wrote:
The awful and sad case of Caster Semenya is a prime example.

Semenya is not trans. Semenya is male with 5-alpha reductase deficiency (46XY 5ARD). Basically a man who didn't grow a penis. Semenya went through male puberty and was allowed to complete in women's events because World Athletics made a dogs dinner of their DSD regulations.

Barefoot · Lower Club Player

I dont think Crispy was suggesting she was, she is intersex and defined female at birth. More that her biological differences have made her an unwanted Guinea pig for different regulations.

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

JonH comes home wrote:
Im a 58 year old man and seldom step into discussions around this whole issue and related issues, I find terminology and accepted use of words confusing and, being frank, put me off expressing a view in fear of getting shot down. My daughter is 21 and the minute we stray into discussion of this area, I get told Im using the wrong language, phrase and get shouted at. I back off to avoid confrontation or looking like a -ist (fill in the blank) as opposed to someone who is behind the curve.

We look after a 101 year old lady who we started providing support for at the start of Covid. She is amazing and lovely and lucid. However, her language and phraseology around people of different racial and national back grounds makes me groan. But really it is no different to how I am with this whole area - the world moves on and it is hard to keep up with what is acceptable, what you can and cant say, even if you mean no harm or derogatory comment.

It is obviously up to each of us to educate ourselves but sometimes it is hard.

Understand completely what you are saying here. Language changes and some of us are so 'long in the tooth' it is hard to keep up. I just hope that when I do (and at some time I most certainly will) that people will be empathetic enough to understand that it is not done out of malice.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Bob in Spain wrote:
JonH comes home wrote:
Im a 58 year old man and seldom step into discussions around this whole issue and related issues, I find terminology and accepted use of words confusing and, being frank, put me off expressing a view in fear of getting shot down. My daughter is 21 and the minute we stray into discussion of this area, I get told Im using the wrong language, phrase and get shouted at. I back off to avoid confrontation or looking like a -ist (fill in the blank) as opposed to someone who is behind the curve.

We look after a 101 year old lady who we started providing support for at the start of Covid. She is amazing and lovely and lucid. However, her language and phraseology around people of different racial and national back grounds makes me groan. But really it is no different to how I am with this whole area - the world moves on and it is hard to keep up with what is acceptable, what you can and cant say, even if you mean no harm or derogatory comment.

It is obviously up to each of us to educate ourselves but sometimes it is hard.
Understand completely what you are saying here. Language changes and some of us are so 'long in the tooth' it is hard to keep up. I just hope that when I do (and at some time I most certainly will) that people will be empathetic enough to understand that it is not done out of malice.

it is like this thread - the topic is Transgender men in womens tennis. Which I presume refers to men identifying/transferring (is that the right word?) from male birth to a woman?

But then people latterly in the thread refer to a trans woman. I have no idea how a transgender man varies from a trans woman, they sound like completely different things to me, the key is probably in the word gender after trans. But I am left immediately confused and immediately back off this discussion because I will probably get it wrong and because, I worry that people will have no patience with me. And I will get labelled phobic in the process.

But is a transgender man the same as a trans woman??

-- Edited by JonH comes home on Tuesday 8th of August 2023 09:12:41 AM

Barefoot · Lower Club Player

Basically, yes. As a rule transgender men is a term used to refer to those who have transitioned to become women - its basically suggesting that they can only ever be men due to their birth, despite any changes they have gone through or how they identify. Its used by those who would class themselves as gender critical, ie against transgender women having the same treatment/spaces as cis, or birth women.

I dont use it as I find it offensive and prefer trans woman - a woman, who is also transgender and therefore was born the other sex.

Steve J · Lower Club Player

JonH comes home wrote:

But is a transgender man the same as a trans woman??

You are not alone in being confuse, read the Murray Blackburn Mackenzie blog that I linked to above. There has been a deliberate attempt by trans rights activists to confuse the language used in this area.

I prefer Trans identified Male (TiM) and Trans identified Female (TiF) as they are unambiguous.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Thanks barefoot and SteveJ. And therein lies where and why many of us scared and back off this space. Whew.

Its like the whole black, coloured, person of colour, negro, African American discussions that happened in the past - it is easy to get left behind, not mean anything by ones choice of words and become labelled quickly with being racist when in fact it is generally about being behind the times. Yes, one should be corrected, not attacked (and calling out is closer to being attacked as a use of language) when folks dont mean anything by it. And it puts one off, particularly older folks. The problem is language moves on quickly and what is accepted moves on quickly. I sometimes say LGBTQ in my house and get laughed at when I say it, dismissed quickly and get put off discussing it further.

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

Steve J wrote:
Bob in Spain wrote:
legaleagle wrote:
Trans women are women
There are no easy answers and no way to keep everyone happy. But if a trans woman has spent a large part of her life as a man before transitioning, she will undoubtedly have physical attributes that CIS women cannot attain without 'chemical help' which is banned.
There is an easy answer. Female and open categories.
It doesn't require a man to have spent a large amount of his life pre 'living as a woman' (whatever that means) to have a physical advantage over women. All it requires is male puberty (World Aquatics went for the start of puberty when they updated their trans rules).
Some people regard 'cis woman' as insulting. Women are not a subset of their sex class.

A classic case in point relating to what John and I were discussing with regard to use of language.

Is there a more acceptable term that I should be using or do people simply object to being considered as "a subset of their sex class" ? If it is the latter, how do we differentiate in order to hold a discussion on this topic.

Barefoot · Lower Club Player

Bob in Spain wrote:
Steve J wrote:
Bob in Spain wrote:
legaleagle wrote:
Trans women are women
There are no easy answers and no way to keep everyone happy. But if a trans woman has spent a large part of her life as a man before transitioning, she will undoubtedly have physical attributes that CIS women cannot attain without 'chemical help' which is banned.
There is an easy answer. Female and open categories.
It doesn't require a man to have spent a large amount of his life pre 'living as a woman' (whatever that means) to have a physical advantage over women. All it requires is male puberty (World Aquatics went for the start of puberty when they updated their trans rules).
Some people regard 'cis woman' as insulting. Women are not a subset of their sex class.
A classic case in point relating to what John and I were discussing with regard to use of language.
Is there a more acceptable term that I should be using or do people simply object to being considered as "a subset of their sex class" ? If it is the latter, how do we differentiate in order to hold a discussion on this topic.

Im a cis woman - and I dont find it offensive at all.

Whatever you do in this space the odds are you will offend someone. You can read from our explanations above that Steve and I are both showing (the opposite) bias. Best thing to do is to find your opinion but stay out of trying to convince anyone else of it wink