Transgender Men in Women's Tennis

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

Transgender Men in Women's Tennis

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis/article-12378079/Martina-Navratilova-blasts-Tennis-Association-transgender-star-Alicia-Rowley-won-womens-national-tournament-claims-sport-not-failed-male-athletes.html

Seriously, USTA?

indiana · Tennis legend

Coup Droit wrote:
www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis/article-12378079/Martina-Navratilova-blasts-Tennis-Association-transgender-star-Alicia-Rowley-won-womens-national-tournament-claims-sport-not-failed-male-athletes.html

Seriously, USTA?

Geezo. Well I guess they think they are being serious

Instead it is buffoonery of the highest order and an absolute crying shame for all these women who want to compete in a great sport with and against other biological women.

So laughing stock, yes, but far from a laughing matter.

Get a grip, USTA, and pronto !

emmsie69 · ATP level

And BJK is all for it!!
Thank Christ for Martina (and others from different sports)
I went to a Free Speech Union talk a few weeks ago (available to watch on their site)
Sharron Davies said that she managed to get 60 signatories against Men in Women's sport but only 5 were actually willing to publicly support her because of the toxicity of the TWAW brigade. This is the result of keeping quiet.

Lambda · Futures level

Can someone please change the title of this thread. It may have been made in good faith out of ignorance, but as it currently reads it makes no sense to the subject matter or if it was used deliberately to refer to an identifying woman assigned male at birth, it is offensive.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

emmsie69 wrote:
And BJK is all for it!!
Thank Christ for Martina (and others from different sports)
I went to a Free Speech Union talk a few weeks ago (available to watch on their site)
Sharron Davies said that she managed to get 60 signatories against Men in Women's sport but only 5 were actually willing to publicly support her because of the toxicity of the TWAW brigade. This is the result of keeping quiet.

Yes, the disagreement between Billie Jean King and Martina is interesting - although I don't see a comment from BJK in the last 24 hours? Maybe I've missed it.....

I do find this distinction between amateur competition and professional competition illogical and insulting though - the President who has just resigned over the rules for the Wyoming Cup has a point

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

This is a subject I have no experience in and am very ill qualified to comment but...to me it seems patently ridiculous that a man who is transitioning to be a woman should be able to play womens sports and, if the above is accurate, change and use the same facilities as the women; everyone wants to be fair, but by being "fair" to the transgender men to women (I do not know the right language and apologise for that) we shouldnt be "unfair" on the bigger majority of women who are born as women.

I dont comment on this because I dont know the right language or terminology and know I will put my foot in it with someone, so I apologise. If it means the mens events need to become "Open" events to accomodate, so we have open and womens, so be it; the tennis world and the US in particular seems to be getting its knickers in a knot on this subject more than some other sports and countries. Maybe it is because tennis is largely a US led sport globally , I dont know?

Anyway, my three pennorth - I think from the above it means I support Martina over BJK, I dont know, and although I am usually a liberal, lefty in my politics, if this leaves me on the other side of the argument here, so be it. We need to protect the naturally born women who will be badly affected by this whole thing and dont have a choice in the matter.

Barefoot · Lower Club Player

Find it very frustrating that this non issue keeps de-railing sport. Im a woman and find the culture wars being waged against transgender people currently detestable - but I, and I think everyone Ive ever met, agree that in the case of sport people do need to be competing in their birth category even if it means they cant get to a higher level..

Just one of those things - Im 5,4 so I can try and shoot hoops casually, but I cant be a basketball player cos Im just not made like that.

Problem is its getting tied up in wider discrimination so people feel like they cant make rational decisions for fear of being seen as the same.

legaleagle · Improver

Trans women are women smile

LordBrownof · Futures level

legaleagle wrote:
Trans women are women

Seconded!

Helen40 · Grand Slam Champion

I don't know that much about this topic, but it seems that anything that gives someone an 'unfair' advantage e.g hormones, shouldn't be allowed.

RainDelay · Pro player

Biological men should not be playing in women's sports. It's madness that we are even discussing this.

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

legaleagle wrote:
Trans women are women

I agree totally. Anyone should be allowed to live their life as they see fit.

But men who pump themselves full of testosterone or anabolic steroids are still men - yet they are not allowed to compete because they have an unfair advantage. Of course I understand there is a HUGE difference between, on the one hand, a person changing/correcting their gender or on the other side, an athlete pumping him/herself full of drugs in a deliberate attempt to cheat, but the advantages are the same.

There are no easy answers and no way to keep everyone happy. But if a trans woman has spent a large part of her life as a man before transitioning, she will undoubtedly have physical attributes that CIS women cannot attain without 'chemical help' which is banned. That does not lead to fair competition.

So I am with Martina on this one. But hugs to anyone out there who may be trans.

Helen40 · Grand Slam Champion

Bob in Spain wrote:
legaleagle wrote:
Trans women are women
I agree totally. Anyone should be allowed to live their life as they see fit.
But men who pump themselves full of testosterone or anabolic steroids are still men - yet they are not allowed to compete because they have an unfair advantage. Of course I understand there is a HUGE difference between, on the one hand, a person changing/correcting their gender or on the other side, an athlete pumping him/herself full of drugs in a deliberate attempt to cheat, but the advantages are the same.
There are no easy answers and no way to keep everyone happy. But if a trans woman has spent a large part of her life as a man before transitioning, she will undoubtedly have physical attributes that CIS women cannot attain without 'chemical help' which is banned. That does not lead to fair competition.
So I am with Martina on this one. But hugs to anyone out there who may be trans.

You said it sooooo much better than I did!

Steve J · Lower Club Player

legaleagle wrote:
Trans women are women

No they are not. In order to be a transwoman, you have to be male. Adult males are men, not women.

Some reading for the uninformed -

Fairplayforwomen's sports page, https://fairplayforwomen.com/campaigns/sports-campaign/

Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage, Hilton and Lundberg, 2020, https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

Why 'Meaningful Competition' is not fair competition, Jon Pike, 2022, https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00948705.2023.2167720