Steve J wrote:

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Jajon wrote:

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Iszac Henig is a female to male swimmer, competing against men in the college system in the States I believe. Also, mental health issues and homelessness are a lot higher in trans people than the general population. Obviously hard to know the causes, but youd imagine stigma/discrimination plays a part? Obviously in the UK its v different, but the rates of murder against trans people in other countries (eg Brazil, probs US but theyre nuts anyway) is crazy and I think theyre 4 times more likely to be victims of violent crimes.

All of that to say, its perfectly possible to think trans women shouldnt be allowed to compete against biological women, while still not being unnecessarily rude/disrespectful/aware that they do have challenges in society! (Aka my point of view)

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Henig is a TiF and competed in US women's college events e.g. https://swimmeetresults.tech/NCAA-Division-I-Women-2022/220316F017.htm .

The rates in Brazil are down to the involvement of TiMs in prostitution.

The trans activists have caused a lot of bad feeling.

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 https://www.outsports.com/platform/amp/trans/2023/1/20/23562332/iszac-henig-swimming-yale-trans-athletes-ivy-league And when they started hormone therapy- he competed against men!

Yas and the reason they so often turn to prostitution in Brazil is because of the stigmatisation and rejection of society- theyre not just rich trans people deciding to live life on the edge! Hence why trans people in Brazil are likely to be granted asylum if they apply in this country- despite it being designated a safe country.

And I dont doubt that some trans activists are very annoying- but you dont judge a group by the actions of a few of them as some kind of representation of *all* of them. Are some of the more extreme ones a bit ridiculous and probs do more harm than good? Yes. But thats always the way when theres some kind of campaign/movement. Throw in the fact its mostly online and its a recipe for mess as people on social media are always trash. 

I just dont think its difficult to simultaneously think trans people deserve to be able to live their life and be aware of where rights can be seen to conflict against eachother and how we should navigate that.  Where the equality act works, where it doesnt. If anything needs reform etc etc. But I dont think theres a need to be rude/pejorative when discussing it, aka calling people trans identified men is just a bit rude/cruel/spiteful. If you did it in a workplace Id imagine youd be on shaky ground in terms of discrimination under gender reassignment in the Equality Act? You can believe sex is non negotiable (i do!), but Im fairly certain if you deliberately misgendered someone in a workplace youd be out- so can we at least attempt to be a bit more civil on the most courteous website on the internet!

Steve J wrote:

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Jajon wrote:

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Im fairly certain if you deliberately misgendered someone in a workplace youd be out

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Nonsense, gender critical beliefs are protected under the EA2010. I use TiM and TiF because they are unambiguous.

Cycling Time Trials went for fairness today https://cyclingtimetrials.org.uk/articles/view/302.

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 Not quite sure where you see that, Steve

The Equality Act does not outlaw discrimination. It only does so for protected characteristics 

Of which there are nine and no more, it's a closed list:

S. 4The protected characteristics

The following characteristics are protected characteristics

• age;

• disability;

• gender reassignment;

• marriage and civil partnership;

• pregnancy and maternity;

• race;

• religion or belief;

• sex;

• sexual orientation.

So people must not be directly or indirectly discriminated against for any reason that falls into one of those categories. Hence, a trans person cannot be discriminated against for their sexual orientation.

But the definition of 'sexual orientation' under s.12 does not include opposing views - i.e. a person has no rights under the Equality Act not to be discriminated against because they have gender critical views. Because that is not your sexual orientation, that's your views on sexual orientation, which is not the same.

The right you're talking about would be more under the European Convention of Human Rights - Article 10 - the freedom of thought and expression

BUT, again, that right is a qualified right - it has to be balanced against other people's rights (and lots of other things) - you have no absolute right to gender critical views (well, in your head, you do, but no absolute right to state them).

Obviously, trans people have no absolute right to state gender inclusive views either. 

No more. Lesson learned.

Jajon wrote:

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Well yeah you can hold any beliefs you want- but thats not an excuse to potentially discriminate and create a hostile environment. I could genuinely believe that gay men are inferior to straight men- doesnt mean I get to go round shouting slurs. (Im gay so let me use it as an example without it being too messy))

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Please stop playing the usual TRA DARVO games. The issue is whether or not males, no matter how they they identify, should be allowed into women's sports. I am strongly of the opinion that they shouldn't.

Steve J wrote:

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Coup Droit wrote:

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Not quite sure where you see that

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Forstater vs Centre for Global Development Europe. 

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 Thanks. Have just been reading it. Genuinely didn't know that it can be considered a religious/philosophical belief for s.10 purposes. Appreciate it - tx

However, I do note the appeal tribunal said:

 However: ..... b. This judgment does not mean that those with gender-critical beliefs can misgender trans persons with impunity.......The fact that the act of misgendering was a manifestation of a belief falling with s.10, EqA would not operate automatically to shield the claimant from such liability....

But, again, thanks 

Jajon wrote:

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Steve J wrote:

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Jajon wrote:

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Well yeah you can hold any beliefs you want- but thats not an excuse to potentially discriminate and create a hostile environment. I could genuinely believe that gay men are inferior to straight men- doesnt mean I get to go round shouting slurs. (Im gay so let me use it as an example without it being too messy))

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Please stop playing the usual TRA DARVO games. The issue is whether or not males, no matter how they they identify, should be allowed into women's sports. I am strongly of the opinion that they shouldn't.

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Uhhhh I dont think people who are born a man should be allowed in womens sports either?! Just googled DARVO though and lol

-- Edited by Jajon on Monday 19th of June 2023 08:14:06 PM

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 Please explain to ne how Transgender people are marginalised and by that I mean come up with actual facts about Transgender people being marginalised not some random twitter quotes from an AGP Male.  If you have any Lesbian friends ask them about the lesbian dating apps now completely over run by those poor marginalised TiM.

I've also had 2 experiences with TiM, in actuality AGP Men who are the ones driving this agenda, accessing Women's spaces.  Banning them from Women only spaces is not being marginalised, being able to wear what ever you want when the rest of the staff have to adhere to uniform standards is not being marginalised, taking awards designed for Women is not being marginalised.  Sitting in the staff room with your little tight skirt on, your legs wide open so we can all see your little skimpy, silk panties with your big hariy balls and dick hanging out is not being marginalised.  That's what I have had to put up with with no recourse because poor little marginalised TiM is literally untouchable.

Nobody is being marginalised, but these Men (it's pretty much always the TiM) want to be able to stamp all over Women.

Women aren't threatening to kill people,  Women aren't throwing around phrases like Nazi, Bigot, Fascist to prevent people from speaking truth. Women aren't bullying and intimidating people.

If you are using Twitter to get your info then clearly you are not getting a balanced view.