Week 24 - WTA250 Nottingham, UK - Grass

Priesty · Challenger level

RE: Week 24 - WTA250 Nottingham, UK - Grass

newby · Junior player

Whaaat on earth

Nix · Futures level

jb288 wrote:
Wow, well done Em! What a day :)

In case Dan's not keeping track, I make that 31 singles wins so far on the grass for the women, versus 15 for the men ;) Best get to work boys!

Haha! In reality I'm a big fan of Dan's and I don't mind his fighting spirit. But if you give it out you have to take it a bit, so I'm sure the women are enjoying this just a little bit more as a stuff you back to him.

Anything that spurs you on to win can only be good. And it does show what can happen when they can both stay fit and play a few tournaments back to back.

dodrade · Futures qualifying

Particularly pleased for Sonay, didn't she get a MD WC for Nottingham last year?

Doonan · Intermediate Club Player

Im not sure the women have that much of a point. Im sure Dans thinking is that the women dont play enough tournaments over the course of a year to consolidate a top 100 ranking and meet their potential. I dont think a couple of decent grass court tournaments change this. If anything it proves his point that they only perform for big events in the UK rather than doing the hard yards elsewhere.

That said, i dont necessarily agree with him and I do think the criticism was slightly unfair with some high profile ailments stopping regular entries a lot of the women. I just dont think these couple of tournaments will have altered Dans perspective.

emmsie69 · Top national player

Slightly off topic but If anyone remembers the footballer that moved to Australia and was coaching his 2 daughters. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/43486837
There was an update earlier this year www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/64901157
I found it quite interesting that he really reduced her training during puberty.
I'm not sure that it is more Physios that the LTA need, maybe more biomechanical analysis during puberty when there are huge growth spurts and potentially some adjustments being made to compensate that aren't healthy long term.

Christine · Intermediate Club Player

emmsie69 wrote:
Slightly off topic but If anyone remembers the footballer that moved to Australia and was coaching his 2 daughters. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/43486837
There was an update earlier this year www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/64901157
I found it quite interesting that he really reduced her training during puberty.
I'm not sure that it is more Physios that the LTA need, maybe more biomechanical analysis during puberty when there are huge growth spurts and potentially some adjustments being made to compensate that aren't healthy long term.

I quite agree, there is so little research being done for women in sport (as well as other areas!) - a friend of mine's son has just got a job as an analyst for a major London women's football team and is one of 2 people doing this whereas if he'd been with the men's team he'd have been in an office with a computer providing data for the analysts. Great for him and he'll be a huge asset, but probably not so great for the team. It's time it was really taken seriously if we want our sports women to be successful in international sport.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

emmsie69 wrote:
Slightly off topic but If anyone remembers the footballer that moved to Australia and was coaching his 2 daughters. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/43486837
There was an update earlier this year www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/64901157
I found it quite interesting that he really reduced her training during puberty.
I'm not sure that it is more Physios that the LTA need, maybe more biomechanical analysis during puberty when there are huge growth spurts and potentially some adjustments being made to compensate that aren't healthy long term.

Yes.

There's also been a lot of research into how training should be planned as regards menstrual cycles.

It's not all agreed, different studies have focused on different aspects, but there's quite strong evidence that tendon/ligament/muscular injuries are far higher during training in the late phase of the cycle, when oestradiol/estrogen is at its peak and, effectively, tendons etc are rather 'weak' and vulnerable

this recent study showed that:

Injury incident rate ratios showed that muscle and tendon injury rates were 88% greater in the late follicular phase compared to the follicular phase, with muscle rupture/tear/strain/cramps and tendon injuries/ruptures occurring over twice as often during the late follicular phase compared to other phases

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7956981/

And this shows that high estrogen levels can decrease power and performance and make women more prone for catastrophic ligament injury.

Of course, women's oestregen levels will vary from person to person too - so if a teenage girl in puberty has rather high estrogen and is doing a particularly heavy workout in the late part of her cycle, she's setting herself up for injury. And the coaches need to know this.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6341375/

Some girls, of course, take the pill from very early on, to prevent period pains that affect their playing performance. And this may boost oestrogen levels even more.

emmsie69 · Top national player

Coup Droit wrote:
emmsie69 wrote:
Slightly off topic but If anyone remembers the footballer that moved to Australia and was coaching his 2 daughters. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/43486837
There was an update earlier this year www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/64901157
I found it quite interesting that he really reduced her training during puberty.
I'm not sure that it is more Physios that the LTA need, maybe more biomechanical analysis during puberty when there are huge growth spurts and potentially some adjustments being made to compensate that aren't healthy long term.
Yes.
There's also been a lot of research into how training should be planned as regards menstrual cycles.
It's not all agreed, different studies have focused on different aspects, but there's quite strong evidence that tendon/ligament/muscular injuries are far higher during training in the late phase of the cycle, when oestradiol/estrogen is at its peak and, effectively, tendons etc are rather 'weak' and vulnerable
this recent study showed that:
Injury incident rate ratios showed that muscle and tendon injury rates were 88% greater in the late follicular phase compared to the follicular phase, with muscle rupture/tear/strain/cramps and tendon injuries/ruptures occurring over twice as often during the late follicular phase compared to other phases
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7956981/
And this shows that high estrogen levels can decrease power and performance and make women more prone for catastrophic ligament injury.
Of course, women's oestregen levels will vary from person to person too - so if a teenage girl in puberty has rather high estrogen and is doing a particularly heavy workout in the late part of her cycle, she's setting herself up for injury. And the coaches need to know this.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6341375/

Some girls, of course, take the pill from very early on, to prevent period pains that affect their playing performance. And this may boost oestrogen levels even more.

I know it's been happening at the adult level, my point was that maybe more focus needs to be put on the juniors as their bodies change and grow. Potentially that's where the problems are stemming from.

ETA I wasn't talking about changes re periods and hormones, I was specifically talking about the changes in the body re growth. That is going to change a lot biomechanically and possibly bad habits forming to adjust for the change in shape.

My Son grew 4" in 7 weeks and that would've impacted so much.

-- Edited by emmsie69 on Sunday 11th of June 2023 09:33:46 AM

Shhh · Challenger level

emmsie69 wrote:

My Son grew 4" in 7 weeks and that would've impacted so much.

-- Edited by emmsie69 on Sunday 11th of June 2023 09:33:46 AM

Crikey.....thats incredible!

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Yes, I understand, emmsie

I was just trying to follow up with other physio issues that I think are particulalry related to teenage years, because you have growth as well as fluctuating hormone levels, and that contribute to higher than necessary injury problems

Purely on growth alone, a good coach will be measuring them (not just in height) very regularly and trying to gauge their growth spurts.

And the 'bad habits' are interesting: I remember one top French youngster who got lambasted in a coach meeting for his suddenly poor footwork and was about to be dropped from the elite squad, and I went to speak to his mother (who knew nothing about tennis) and just chatted, and she mentioned that he'd gone up 2 shoe sizes in a couple of months. Which I then emailed to all those in the coach meeting ! Surely his coach should have been on top of that....

emmsie69 · Top national player

Shhh wrote:
emmsie69 wrote:
My Son grew 4" in 7 weeks and that would've impacted so much.

-- Edited by emmsie69 on Sunday 11th of June 2023 09:33:46 AM
Crikey.....thats incredible!

It was, he went back to School in the September and I could lean forward and kiss his forehead, when he broke up for half term in October he was leaning forward and kissing my forehead.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

emmsie69 wrote:
Shhh wrote:
emmsie69 wrote:
My Son grew 4" in 7 weeks and that would've impacted so much.

-- Edited by emmsie69 on Sunday 11th of June 2023 09:33:46 AM
Crikey.....thats incredible!
It was, he went back to School in the September and I could lean forward and kiss his forehead, when he broke up for half term in October he was leaning forward and kissing my forehead.

My son had plateaued at 6 foot exactly at age 16. No further growth for 18 months. Thought it was over. All fine.

And then, in two months, just before his 18th birthday, he grew 2 inches. Not quite as dramatic as yours, emmsie, but, yes, it can be very sudden, and unexpected. My son even had quite bad stretch marks on his back (well, still has them), just from growing too quicky for his own skin to cope with

emmsie69 · Top national player

Coup Droit wrote:
Yes, I understand, emmsie

I was just trying to follow up with other physio issues that I think are particulalry related to teenage years, because you have growth as well as fluctuating hormone levels, and that contribute to higher than necessary injury problems

Purely on growth alone, a good coach will be measuring them (not just in height) very regularly and trying to gauge their growth spurts.

And the 'bad habits' are interesting: I remember one top French youngster who got lambasted in a coach meeting for his suddenly poor footwork and was about to be dropped from the elite squad, and I went to speak to his mother (who knew nothing about tennis) and just chatted, and she mentioned that he'd gone up 2 shoe sizes in a couple of months. Which I then emailed to all those in the coach meeting ! Surely his coach should have been on top of that....

So much more research to be done. Not sure the coaches really would consider all the implications of a growth spurt but it can't be much different to how we respond to injury. We adjust and compensate and if we do that for too long there are long term consequences.

murrayman650 · ATP level

Dart wins first set 6-0