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Post Info TOPIC: Week 19 - WTA1000 $1.8M Rome, Italy Clay


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Week 19 - WTA1000 $1.8M Rome, Italy Clay


It's like when genuine football fans annoyingly get asked by some others "are you really a fan of the club?" Some of the most passionate fans are very critical, partly because they often so much want the best for their team. 

Somewhat like FW my favourite player for many years has been Andy but I have at times not held back in being critical of things that have arisen in his matches or more generally.

So fair enough to actively debate points you really disagree with. But maybe stick to that.



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My last post on the subject of Jo and Rome.

I never intended to post here because I knew what the response would be and I definitely regret bringing who is a fan into it, if only because it has side tracked the discussion on Jo's performance. I should have known better but I was so incensed by the language used... "complete thrashing", "other players being more committed" (particularly that one), "same applies to Heather" (that too), "Is she entered for 250's? If not why not?", "that defeat seemed more symptomatic of a general decline in Jo's play".

As for Jo, I do very much recognise she has weaknesses, otherwise she would be top 10 but I've learnt to keep them private on social platforms. For reasons which I still don't fully understand, Jo is seen quite broadly as a legitimate target for abuse and NOT just by the ignorant bigots you might expect given Jo's background.

I did see positives for Jo in Rome, notably her break point conversion and reigning in errors both of which have lost her matches over the last year (and arguably the title in Cincinnati). She did briefly dominate play in the middle of set 1 but a couple of games into set 2 Jo's frustration took over. Jo was never the favourite even before we knew how Ostapenko would perform. Jo's 2021 performance has been too clouded by Covid and injury to make a reasonable judgement yet on her future.

As an aside, Jo is for sure my favourite Brit but I do support several non Brits on both tours and one for considerably longer than Jo. I'm also mindful that Jo could at any time now, decide her off court options are more attractive and I fear, if we're not very careful, we might have seen the last of Jo fighting for Team GB in the BJK Cup and that would be really sad. I'm already looking for which Brit I might support post Jo. In the short term, anyway, I have one person in mind. In the longer term there are several who might yet step up.

 

 



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TTMan wrote:

My last post on the subject of Jo and Rome.

I never intended to post here because I knew what the response would be and I definitely regret bringing who is a fan into it, if only because it has side tracked the discussion on Jo's performance. I should have known better but I was so incensed by the language used... "complete thrashing", "other players being more committed" (particularly that one), "same applies to Heather" (that too), "Is she entered for 250's? If not why not?", "that defeat seemed more symptomatic of a general decline in Jo's play".

As for Jo, I do very much recognise she has weaknesses, otherwise she would be top 10 but I've learnt to keep them private on social platforms. For reasons which I still don't fully understand, Jo is seen quite broadly as a legitimate target for abuse and NOT just by the ignorant bigots you might expect given Jo's background.

I did see positives for Jo in Rome, notably her break point conversion and reigning in errors both of which have lost her matches over the last year (and arguably the title in Cincinnati). She did briefly dominate play in the middle of set 1 but a couple of games into set 2 Jo's frustration took over. Jo was never the favourite even before we knew how Ostapenko would perform. Jo's 2021 performance has been too clouded by Covid and injury to make a reasonable judgement yet on her future.

As an aside, Jo is for sure my favourite Brit but I do support several non Brits on both tours and one for considerably longer than Jo. I'm also mindful that Jo could at any time now, decide her off court options are more attractive and I fear, if we're not very careful, we might have seen the last of Jo fighting for Team GB in the BJK Cup and that would be really sad. I'm already looking for which Brit I might support post Jo. In the short term, anyway, I have one person in mind. In the longer term there are several who might yet step up.

 

 


 There is a definite difference in comments between Men and Women. Our women are struggling at the moment, either with wins or injuries, if they don't perform then they get slated. Compare what was said about Emily Appleton to what has been said about Aidan who is having even more issues with losing to lower ranked players.  I nesarly commented the other day about it but am unsure if it is because the people commenting about Emily don't follow Mens tennis. I' have been critical myself but mostly about the fitness issues the women are having and have made clear that my beef is with the physio programme rather than the players.



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I agree, emnsie, and yes I do think this anomaly, as it were, is that these who like to comment in depth far more follow the women. The effect then is that, while I am sure just about all ( maybe indeed all ) are supportive of our women, the forum in general can then seem to be more critical of our women. But then I would think most of us want to hear and discuss honest opinions and we can't make folk take more interest in our men. It kind of is what it is

It remains by number historically a decent group of youngish ( but getting older ) top10 Btitish women but overall not progressing quite as hoped, say when our best top 10 ranking average this century was set nearly 3 years ago. That was 190.1 in June 2018 while our latest top 10 average is 200.1 so only 10 worse. ( stats from the Strongest Nation thread ). Just I and I am sure many others hoped for more, though I give more of a pass in the last year or so with covid.

But yes, I have said before, the lack of depth in our men, and the lack of new players coming through, is to me far more concerning. After our best 7 ranked ( some who have been performing very well ( Dan, Cam, Liam ), some we hope for more from but still with time on their side ( Jay, Jack ), particularly Jack, and some who have been injured ( Kyle, Andy ) who is there out there??

Paul hopefully, Ryan, Anton maybe, then we are arguably going down to recent juniors for just again hope at this stage, such as Arthur and Felix. And then Jack PJ is currently our only junior wirh a senior ranking. For now, for Aidan, yes, and others, it's not happening.

While it has been great to see some of the results of Dan, Cam and Liam this year, we really do need to enjoy them,, for the cupboard is prerty bare beyond them. But generally our men escape because of the less detailed analysis compared to our women who at least offer us numbers and still a number of good uoward possibilities.

Sorry for further diverging, regarding our men, in the women's section. But I thought it was interesting points emmsie made. I think I will use this as a starter for a thread in the men's section, for any further thoughts on the situation with our men. 



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indiana wrote:

I agree, emnsie, and yes I do think this anomaly, as it were, is that these who like to comment in depth far more follow the women. The effect then is that, while I am sure just about all ( maybe indeed all ) are supportive of our women, the forum in general can then seem to be more critical of our women. But then I would think most of us want to hear and discuss honest opinions and we can't make folk take more interest in our men. It kind of is what it is

It remains by number historically a decent group of youngish ( but getting older ) top10 Btitish women but overall not progressing quite as hoped, say when our best top 10 ranking average this century was set nearly 3 years ago. That was 190.1 in June 2018 while our latest top 10 average is 200.1 so only 10 worse. ( stats from the Strongest Nation thread ). Just I and I am sure many others hoped for more, though I give more of a pass in the last year or so with covid.

But yes, I have said before, the lack of depth in our men, and the lack of new players coming through, is to me far more concerning. After our best 7 ranked ( some who have been performing very well ( Dan, Cam, Liam ), some we hope for more from but still with time on their side ( Jay, Jack ), particularly Jack, and some who have been injured ( Kyle, Andy ) who is there out there??

Paul hopefully, Ryan, Anton maybe, then we are arguably going down to recent juniors for just again hope at this stage, such as Arthur and Felix. And then Jack PJ is currently our only junior wirh a senior ranking. For now, for Aidan, yes, and others, it's not happening.

While it has been great to see some of the results of Dan, Cam and Liam this year, we really do need to enjoy them,, for the cupboard is prerty bare beyond them. But generally our men escape because of the less detailed analysis compared to our women who at least offer us numbers and still a number of good uoward possibilities.

Sorry for further diverging, regarding our men, in the women's section. But I thought it was interesting points emmsie made. I think I will use this as a starter for a thread in the men's section, for any further thoughts on the situation with our men. 


 I agree with your top comment for sure Indy. The mens section (and I am stereotyping here) seems to be a lot more of the come on liam, well done andy, great result, disappointing loss without any of the dissection.

The womens section here as a lot more fanatical dissection - a lot of our posters go into a lot of depth in the womens section, much more than the mens and i think that can often lead to a lot more introspection. in actual fact it is good to see for me, but i see how it is construed. 

i for one tend to be a very clear mens tennis fan, and  go for a lot more of the ad hoc comment stuff, well done so and so. i actually think it would be great if we had one or two posters on the mens who did dissect more, but it is what it is and i dont typically have the energy to do that, nor the real insight - in part because i dont actually watch much tennis in fact, rather follow the news and scores. 

i have always found it a peculiarity of this board that many of the womens tennis fans are men here - nothing wrong with that, just strange to me as i personally dont find womens tennis very engaging, rather a passing interest, whereas mens i am a genuine fan. i dont know if other forums like TF have a lot of men supporters, maybe it is a British thing?  



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I tend to follow the stronger tour overall which has been the Mens with Fed, Nadal and A N Other but currently the Women's is more interesting. I'm on Tennis Forum but I only dip into MTF and my impression is that MTF is a lot quieter. There are quite a lot of stupid if not downright offensive threads on Tennis Forum though. I've just been getting more and more irritated lately that Aidan in particular is getting a free pass compared to Emily.



-- Edited by emmsie69 on Friday 14th of May 2021 03:30:00 PM

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Further there are quite a few Male Players in their mid 20s still scrabbling around at 15k level and I often wonder what they are hoping to achieve but its important to remember that this is their life and their choice. The vast majority of people aren't at the top of the career ladder, most of us are just muddling along, sometimes doing a great job, sometimes slacking off, none of them owe us a thing.

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Interesting points, emmsie69.

I completely agree about the 'what do they hope to achieve, but who cares, the vast VAST majority of us are not in the very top echelon of our profession and yet we keep going and no one questions that'....

(now, I realise, most of us can make a passable living by being 5000 in the world or whatever, which you can't in tennis, but that's not really the point).

As to the difference in women and men comments:

I think Emily App has maybe been singled out slightly because of her high profile with the Sky scholarship. It rather put her up there on a pedestal as THE selected one, to be shot at. The fact she turned down a very good US tennis scholarship is also a factor.

I don't think it really applies to all the women. Although, as Indy rightly says, there's a lot more focus on women's tennis in this forum so obviously more talk in general will make the negative talk more (as well as the positive).

As to Aidan (and I know Indy has opened a thread for the men, but just here for the sake of comparison), it's true he's had relatively little focus but Jay Clarke, for instance, has had quite a lot of negative stuff on this forum (re being disappointing, not progressing etc).

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Swiatek vs Ka Pliskova final here, and Iga has only dropped 4 points in the whole set. 6-0 in 19 mins.

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What with the 4 LLs coming in, walkovers, high profile retirements, I think this event has felt more like a classic RG warm up event, whereas Madrid last week felt more like a big event in it's own right to me, with the big crowd involvement, a fairytale WC run, and a final between Barty and Sabalenka, which kind of felt like a collision course from very early on. The weather hasn't helped either, some players having to play 2 matches in one day, and the rain may well have been the deciding factor in Barty's retirements (from a leading position) against Gauff the other day, although that obviously can't be helped.

A few players coming back in to a bit of form, Martic ending her 0-8 run against top 100 players to make the biggest SF of her career, Pliskova playing a bit better and making a 3rd successive Rome final (although struggling here), and Ostapenko stringing a few wins together for the first time in a long time.

Interesting that both finalists had to save multiple MPs in a previous round match.




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Slightly better second set from Pliskova - won 9 points. Probably should have stayed in bed. Totally dominant performance by Iga.

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Ace Ventura wrote:

What with the 4 LLs coming in, walkovers, high profile retirements, I think this event has felt more like a classic RG warm up event, whereas Madrid last week felt more like a big event in it's own right to me, with the big crowd involvement, a fairytale WC run, and a final between Barty and Sabalenka, which kind of felt like a collision course from very early on. The weather hasn't helped either, some players having to play 2 matches in one day, and the rain may well have been the deciding factor in Barty's retirements (from a leading position) against Gauff the other day, although that obviously can't be helped.

A few players coming back in to a bit of form, Martic ending her 0-8 run against top 100 players to make the biggest SF of her career, Pliskova playing a bit better and making a 3rd successive Rome final (although struggling here), and Ostapenko stringing a few wins together for the first time in a long time.

Interesting that both finalists had to save multiple MPs in a previous round match.



 Whereas the mens has felt like this was the big week with some great matches whereas Madrid was a bit ,mewh. And generally is IMO! 



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Statement. She's always been in and around 5/1 as one of the main RG faves along with Barty and Halep (although she is drifting now with her being a huge doubt) depending on who you bet with, but this will certainly catch eyes. She sure does love those slower clay courts. Emphatic.

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Ace Ventura wrote:

What with the 4 LLs coming in, walkovers, high profile retirements, I think this event has felt more like a classic RG warm up event, whereas Madrid last week felt more like a big event in it's own right to me, with the big crowd involvement, a fairytale WC run, and a final between Barty and Sabalenka, which kind of felt like a collision course from very early on. The weather hasn't helped either, some players having to play 2 matches in one day, and the rain may well have been the deciding factor in Barty's retirements (from a leading position) against Gauff the other day, although that obviously can't be helped.

A few players coming back in to a bit of form, Martic ending her 0-8 run against top 100 players to make the biggest SF of her career, Pliskova playing a bit better and making a 3rd successive Rome final (although struggling here), and Ostapenko stringing a few wins together for the first time in a long time.

Interesting that both finalists had to save multiple MPs in a previous round match.



 That aged well



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emmsie69 wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:

What with the 4 LLs coming in, walkovers, high profile retirements, I think this event has felt more like a classic RG warm up event, whereas Madrid last week felt more like a big event in it's own right to me, with the big crowd involvement, a fairytale WC run, and a final between Barty and Sabalenka, which kind of felt like a collision course from very early on. The weather hasn't helped either, some players having to play 2 matches in one day, and the rain may well have been the deciding factor in Barty's retirements (from a leading position) against Gauff the other day, although that obviously can't be helped.

A few players coming back in to a bit of form, Martic ending her 0-8 run against top 100 players to make the biggest SF of her career, Pliskova playing a bit better and making a 3rd successive Rome final (although struggling here), and Ostapenko stringing a few wins together for the first time in a long time.

Interesting that both finalists had to save multiple MPs in a previous round match.



 That aged well


Well it was 0-6 0-2/3 at the time of writing, so it didn't really have to age much more, but I was meaning generally, as in that she was 27 in the race coming into this week, which is very poor by her standards, won just 6 games combined in 2 of her 3 recent defeats to Pegula, losing 2 and 4 to 200 odd Gasanova at the start of the year, early exits all over the place etc. so a W1000 final is a definite improvement for her 2021 form, but she'll obviously take very little positives from that beatdown, just that she get there on time.

 



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