Week 19 - WTA1000 $1.8M Rome, Italy Clay

Jaggy1876 · Grand Slam Champion

RE: Week 19 - WTA1000 $1.8M Rome, Italy Clay

HarryGem · Club Coach

the addict wrote:
That's a really poor result. Hope she can turn her game around in time for Roland Garros, or she won't even make the seeds at Wimbledon.

I think we can all agree that that was a complete thrashing. Ok Ostapenko's level was off the scale in terms of winners but Jo was poor. How many serves did she keep placing right into the forehand strike zone of Ostapenko only to see the ball wizz past her for another winner? I counted 5 in just one game.

Jo's serve has basically become ordinary and her variation is non existent. She is one of the players most overranked right now. It isn't her fault but it is an injustice that players who are more commited to the tour, playing more tournaments than Jo and actually winning matches have lower ranking points. I'd say the same applies to Heather as well.

I share TA's concern. Is she entered for one of the two 250s? if not why not? It is hard to see how she can possibly turn round her current form in time for Roland Garros if she doesn't play. She's defending a lot of points there and if she gets a bad draw she will lose in the first round on current form.

Sometimes you just have to say, like yesterday, that your opponent was just too good but that defeat seemed more symptomatic of a more general decline in Jo's play. Right now her form of mid 2019 seems a long way off and a long time ago. As a fan of Jo it is sad to witness.

RedSquirrel · Satellite level

indiana wrote:

JonH comes home wrote:
Still top 20 it seems. Not sure thats deserved but it is what it is.
Take your pick of OER or live-tennis.
Regarding Rome, Jo was RU in May 2019 for 585 points and L16 in September 2020 for 105 points. She went into this week counting 585 points for Rome, ie the higher from the 2 years.
1) OER: live down 584 points to live #21 on 2652 points
- this was what I was assuming, a net reduction of 584, taking out the existing Rome counter and replacing it by 1 ( her best non counter )
2) live-tennis: live down 480 points to live #20 on 2756 points.
- initially confuddled by this, I now assume that this is a net reduction of 585 - 105 = 480. They appear to be yes removing her 585 Rome counter but replacing it with her 105 points from last September. I had assumed once the Rome counter had been decided as the greater of 2019 and 2020 ( in line with general 'greater of' counters, the lower score was dead and buried even though it is from just 8 months ago. But live-tennis are considering otherwise and now counting it??
Hey ho.

In this case live tennis is correct. The player keeps all points but can only count 1 Rome tournament towards the 16 counting tournaments at any one time. Once a counter drops off they are able to use any other points for Rome even if they were originally discounted on the better off system. The WTA release states this for the better off system for 2020/2021 points for 2020 events held outside their usual slot and the same can be applied for the 2019 better off system.

"2020 points will stay on for 52 weeks if the points earned are better than the 2021 results or the player does not compete at the event in 2021
In the event that 2020 points are used, they will drop off after 52 weeks, being replaced by the 2021 points"

It would be unfair if a player who used Rome points from 2020 was able to count them beyond the 2021 tournament but a player who had used 2019 points wasn't able to count any 2020 points beyond Rome 2021.

(they've still not updated the COVID rule adjustments for 2021 with the changes announced during Miami)

indiana · Tennis legend

Thank you RS for this. and thinking it through it doesn't seem to me unreasonable alrhough hopefully in 2022 we can get round to adding just 2022 scores and be clear of all other year counters by the end of that yesr at least. I am sure sone would like to be back sooner to just one year counting.

With its later in 2020 date I guess Rome was the first example of the better of 2019 and 2020 then adding in 2021 to the mix.

And live-tennis did 'win' the live WTA updates for Madtid while OER 'won' on the ATP side.

junior · Intermediate Club Player

I'm amazed how the idea of hitting a dropshot on clay against a relatively immobile Serena Williams seems absolutely foreign

scottie1 · Futures level

Williams lost does not bode well for the French Open

flamingowings · All-time great

junior wrote:
I'm amazed how the idea of hitting a dropshot on clay against a relatively immobile Serena Williams seems absolutely foreign

How to best Serena - get her to move. Yet not as many players do this as you would think.

sliced backhand · Lower Club Player

junior wrote:
I'm amazed how the idea of hitting a dropshot on clay against a relatively immobile Serena Williams seems absolutely foreign

I think 'relatively' should be replaced by 'totally'!

TTMan · Intermediate Club Player

HarryGem wrote:
the addict wrote:
That's a really poor result. Hope she can turn her game around in time for Roland Garros, or she won't even make the seeds at Wimbledon.
I think we can all agree that that was a complete thrashing. Ok Ostapenko's level was off the scale in terms of winners but Jo was poor. How many serves did she keep placing right into the forehand strike zone of Ostapenko only to see the ball wizz past her for another winner? I counted 5 in just one game.
Jo's serve has basically become ordinary and her variation is non existent. She is one of the players most overranked right now. It isn't her fault but it is an injustice that players who are more commited to the tour, playing more tournaments than Jo and actually winning matches have lower ranking points. I'd say the same applies to Heather as well.
I share TA's concern. Is she entered for one of the two 250s? if not why not? It is hard to see how she can possibly turn round her current form in time for Roland Garros if she doesn't play. She's defending a lot of points there and if she gets a bad draw she will lose in the first round on current form.
Sometimes you just have to say, like yesterday, that your opponent was just too good but that defeat seemed more symptomatic of a more general decline in Jo's play. Right now her form of mid 2019 seems a long way off and a long time ago. As a fan of Jo it is sad to witness.

Firstly, it wasn't a complete thrashing. What Jo did to Serena, in just 15 mins actual playing time (6-1 6-0) was a complete thrashing. If you're a follower of WTA you will know that Ostapenko can be unplayable when everything is working, which is how she came to be FO champion. Jo was exceedingly unlucky to meet Ostapenko on one of her better days, in round 1, at a time when she desperately needs a run.

If you're not aware and you should be by now, Jo is fighting her way back from an inoperable knee injury, so of course she won't be fully on form yet but if you actually saw the match it was blatantly obvious that a lot of her good stuff is still there, though still perhaps slightly inhibited. Even if you did watch the match, just take a look at Jo's stats. Jo converted 50% of her BPs, braking Ostapenko in both sets and also kept a lid on errors both of which is an excellent sign. Yes, arguably too much at the expense of aggression but it was hard to tell because of the way Ostapenko was playing. Many of the games (especially on Jo's serve) were competitive and Jo still manged to win c.40% of the total points. Jo had 69% 1st serves in, which alone would have carried her through most round 1 encounters. Btw Ostapenko is already through to round 3.

Secondly, you shouldn't underestimate the impact of Covid. Witness the number of top women who went out of Rome yesterday. Also the restrictions must make planning events to enter a nightmare for players and their teams (especially when they come from different nations). In Jo's case, she also needs to be able to give her knee the requisite gym attention to maintain its strength.

If you were a genuine a fan of Jo's you would NOT be making your closing statement. You would be giving Jo more slack. Do you think Andy Murray's fans would say something like that?? Is it any wonder that Jo's genuine supporters have largely fled this Forum.

TTMan · Intermediate Club Player

RedSquirrel wrote:
indiana wrote:

JonH comes home wrote:
Still top 20 it seems. Not sure thats deserved but it is what it is.
Take your pick of OER or live-tennis.
Regarding Rome, Jo was RU in May 2019 for 585 points and L16 in September 2020 for 105 points. She went into this week counting 585 points for Rome, ie the higher from the 2 years.
1) OER: live down 584 points to live #21 on 2652 points
- this was what I was assuming, a net reduction of 584, taking out the existing Rome counter and replacing it by 1 ( her best non counter )
2) live-tennis: live down 480 points to live #20 on 2756 points.
- initially confuddled by this, I now assume that this is a net reduction of 585 - 105 = 480. They appear to be yes removing her 585 Rome counter but replacing it with her 105 points from last September. I had assumed once the Rome counter had been decided as the greater of 2019 and 2020 ( in line with general 'greater of' counters, the lower score was dead and buried even though it is from just 8 months ago. But live-tennis are considering otherwise and now counting it??
Hey ho.

In this case live tennis is correct. The player keeps all points but can only count 1 Rome tournament towards the 16 counting tournaments at any one time. Once a counter drops off they are able to use any other points for Rome even if they were originally discounted on the better off system. The WTA release states this for the better off system for 2020/2021 points for 2020 events held outside their usual slot and the same can be applied for the 2019 better off system.

"2020 points will stay on for 52 weeks if the points earned are better than the 2021 results or the player does not compete at the event in 2021
In the event that 2020 points are used, they will drop off after 52 weeks, being replaced by the 2021 points"

It would be unfair if a player who used Rome points from 2020 was able to count them beyond the 2021 tournament but a player who had used 2019 points wasn't able to count any 2020 points beyond Rome 2021.

(they've still not updated the COVID rule adjustments for 2021 with the changes announced during Miami)

Sorry if I've missed it somewhere else but can anyone tell me what has / will happen to the points Jo got in Rabat 2019? Rabat is currently scheduled but postponed and I guess could easily get cancelled altogether for 2021.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Interesting to see Gauff beat Sabalenka today, in straight sets. Dont follow much but didnt see Gauff as a challenger on clay but...

See she and Pegula are first two into last 8 here, Serena may be gone but other AMericans are keeping the fires burning

TTMan · Intermediate Club Player

Ostapenko marches on to the quarters taking out Kerber this time. Really bad luck for Jo to meet her in round 1. Still, it looks like Jo has overcome the pain.

https://twitter.com/JohannaKonta/status/1392820335247073283

Lets hope there's enough tennis left this year for Jo to turn things around. I don't somehow feel she's giving up just yet. Somebody questioned Jo's commitment. Apart from reuniting with Zavialoff, I'm pretty sure I saw the renowned sport psychologist Lorenzo Beltrame in Jo's player box, he coached Jo in 2019. Lets hope I'm correct and he has the same impact.

https://www.evertacademy.com/director-performance-training/lorenzo-beltrame

Ace Ventura · Tennis legend

To be honest TTMan, I think if Jo had lost 4-6 in the third set the other day after say, over 2 hours, there wouldn't have been the response that her 3 and 1, little over 1 hour defeat generated. Kerber lost as many games in that defeat today (13) as Jo has in her last 3 defeats combined, and the defeat directly before that little sequence was another routine 2 and 2 to Shelby Rogers. Whoever she had drawn, it would have been 'in case you hadn't realised...' 'xxx was a top 20 player, 'xxx did this, xxx did that', the fact is, she has now lost 10 of her last 15 matches, most of those routinely where she manages between 3 and 6 games in total, and she hasn't won more than 1 match at any event since 'Cincinnati' last August - that's 9 events in a row where she has exited at either the first, or second hurdle. Not great, especially for someone who has had a top 20 ranking ever since her success in the 2019 grand slams.

We get you're a huge fan of her, and that's fine, admirable even, and you want to stick up for her as you think she gets a hard time in the media, and even on here, (certainly on TennisForum), but most are just saying things as they see them, even if it may come across that they are knocking our (undoubted) best female player in a generation. As GB tennis fans, we pretty much all want her to get back to her best, as she's the only female player we have that can string 3 or 4 wins together in the biggest events, but sadly, those days seem a very long way away, and I personally find very little to be excited or encouraged by what she has produced over what is now becoming a very long period, even if there are certain unfortunate circumstances, which you are often quick to point out.

I probably shouldn't have said anything, as no doubt there will be further back and forth biggrin , although this will be the last I say on Jo's brief Rome showing, but I personally saw absolutely nothing wrong with what HarryGem wrote, and agreed with most of it.

But yes, even if some of us do come across as (overly) critical, I'm sure we can all agree that it would be great if she could get back to her 2017 or 2019 form at some stage in the near future, before she calls it a career, because the way the general GB landscape is, it will be a much needed boost.

HarryGem · Club Coach

TTMan wrote:
HarryGem wrote:
the addict wrote:
That's a really poor result. Hope she can turn her game around in time for Roland Garros, or she won't even make the seeds at Wimbledon.
I think we can all agree that that was a complete thrashing. Ok Ostapenko's level was off the scale in terms of winners but Jo was poor. How many serves did she keep placing right into the forehand strike zone of Ostapenko only to see the ball wizz past her for another winner? I counted 5 in just one game.
Jo's serve has basically become ordinary and her variation is non existent. She is one of the players most overranked right now. It isn't her fault but it is an injustice that players who are more commited to the tour, playing more tournaments than Jo and actually winning matches have lower ranking points. I'd say the same applies to Heather as well.
I share TA's concern. Is she entered for one of the two 250s? if not why not? It is hard to see how she can possibly turn round her current form in time for Roland Garros if she doesn't play. She's defending a lot of points there and if she gets a bad draw she will lose in the first round on current form.
Sometimes you just have to say, like yesterday, that your opponent was just too good but that defeat seemed more symptomatic of a more general decline in Jo's play. Right now her form of mid 2019 seems a long way off and a long time ago. As a fan of Jo it is sad to witness.
Firstly, it wasn't a complete thrashing. What Jo did to Serena, in just 15 mins actual playing time (6-1 6-0) was a complete thrashing. If you're a follower of WTA you will know that Ostapenko can be unplayable when everything is working, which is how she came to be FO champion. Jo was exceedingly unlucky to meet Ostapenko on one of her better days, in round 1, at a time when she desperately needs a run.
If you're not aware and you should be by now, Jo is fighting her way back from an inoperable knee injury, so of course she won't be fully on form yet but if you actually saw the match it was blatantly obvious that a lot of her good stuff is still there, though still perhaps slightly inhibited. Even if you did watch the match, just take a look at Jo's stats. Jo converted 50% of her BPs, braking Ostapenko in both sets and also kept a lid on errors both of which is an excellent sign. Yes, arguably too much at the expense of aggression but it was hard to tell because of the way Ostapenko was playing. Many of the games (especially on Jo's serve) were competitive and Jo still manged to win c.40% of the total points. Jo had 69% 1st serves in, which alone would have carried her through most round 1 encounters. Btw Ostapenko is already through to round 3.
Secondly, you shouldn't underestimate the impact of Covid. Witness the number of top women who went out of Rome yesterday. Also the restrictions must make planning events to enter a nightmare for players and their teams (especially when they come from different nations). In Jo's case, she also needs to be able to give her knee the requisite gym attention to maintain its strength.
If you were a genuine a fan of Jo's you would NOT be making your closing statement. You would be giving Jo more slack. Do you think Andy Murray's fans would say something like that?? Is it any wonder that Jo's genuine supporters have largely fled this Forum.

Sorry but I really don't see what you are getting at. Anyone can be a "genuine fan" of a player and still comment that they are not playing well or are you seriously suggesting Jo is playing well and has been since her last Wimbledon defeat. Because if you are then you are watching a different player to me. I watched the whole match and you can paint the stats how you like but she was completely outplayed. As I said sometimes you just have to admit the other player was better on the day and this was the case. She only managed to get 4 break points whereas Ostapenko manufactured 13. She only won 47% of those first serve points.

Yes of course there's covid and of course there is her knee. There is also the fact she's nearing 30, probably doesn't have that much longer at the top of the game and maybe is starting to think about life ofter tennis and all of that is fine, she's more than done her bit for Gb tennis and I think I made it perfectly clear that I find her decline sad. I wish her nothing but the best.

Anyway let's all hope she can do better in Paris but is is going to be difficult especially if she gets a tough draw.

flamingowings · All-time great

Being a fan of a player but never being able to be critical or negative about them...well, there are OTT fans on twitter etc about Nadal/Djokovic/Federer who are the same. I am an Andy fan but have been critical of him in the past, most recently when he was asking for WC and then withdrawing last minute from the tournament, like I would criticise any player I follow for doing that. By only being able to comment positively on Jo's performance, this perpetuates a false atmosphere. I am not trying to "shut anyone down" but I fail to see how HarryGem (or the majority of us) aren't Jo fans.