Shhh wrote:

---

I just voted Tory in this poll as they will probably get my vote. This is based on I only have the main three to choose from in my seat, I always look for an independent if possible. People keep there head down about voting Tory the same as they do if they voted Brexit. You are told you are wrong, pure and simple. Its easier to keep quiet and carry on. It always feel to me those to the left of centre have decided they have it all correct and I see non of the "liberal" attitudes or willingness to debate when you are on the right. Your just a wrong-un.

To be honest though, I think politics is in a shocking, shocking state. I don't like Boris, nor some of the tactics used by the Conservatives in this election, deplorable. My vote goes there purely as I have greater dislike for the others, what a sad state of affairs. All parties have lied and campaigned negatively. Neither of the Tory/Labour manifestos add up. I would say that we deserve better but in this social media driven life we build around ourselves, I am not sure that is true.

To me, despite my Brexit stance I have spoken of on here, I think the environment is by far the biggest issue of the day. The Green Party is the only party I have ever belonged to but I don't think there stance in many areas is rooted in any form of reality. Our parties are all chucking out soundbite driven policies but the environment issue requires a world agreement to get it put right and I do not see that happening from a world perspective. We are destroying the planet and I do not see mankind capable of self correcting. That's a cheery thought for you all. I suppose what I am saying is I feel pretty let down by politics and the divisions that Brexit threw up in general. I'll still vote though as I think its a really important thing to do by principle. I just cannot see anybody who represents what my beliefs are and none that inspire me to follow.

---

For the first paragraph, the equal opposing argument is true of the Tories - if you want any form of immigration or to use data-driven methods that are proven to work but that happen to go out against the gut-reaction traditional methods that may mean things like early release but less recidivism, then you are, and always have been branded as weak, hippyish etc, borderline equated to probably gay etc, and just absolutely pie-in-the-sky, indefatigably just plain wrong.

One side looks around ad sees the state the world is, ignores all the bad things and says see what progress we've made things aren't so bad if you'd just stop running the public opinion down.
The other side says things aren't great, social inequality is artificially preserved and exacerbated in order to maintain an upwardly re-distributative society for the benefit of an increasingly vanishingly small number of the population, and in order to try and get people to take action against this, they dwell on the negative aspects of the outcomes and mostly ignore any positives, and fail to cost the proposal even though it is perfectly possible to do so, they prefer to sell it always on the perceived moral benefit.

We need both sides to make the best society, a little of each to create the best policies.
Brexit though has locked us into the American system now, probably permanently, short of some sort of catastrophic revolution-like event, of absolute ideological purity above all else. Your side always right, always excused. The other side always wrong, villified, the devil. Every excuse to ignore any public scrutiny or concern masqueraded as a virtue a strength - if the other side are asking questions, it must be right to ignore it.

So, people are going to hand the Tories a massive majority, and thus reward them for Austerity and the massive cuts to public services, and their continuous shambles in handling Brexit - they created the issue with the terrible referendum process and question; they alone oversaw the negotiations and the lack of professinalism or due care and attention that their ministers and representatives displayed, unperpared fudged figures, bad analysis etc then had the gall to claim they were being put uponm from all sides.

We have the most grasping, rapacious, mendacious groups with their hands on the levers of power, and they are about to carve us all up for their own benefits. 51st staters all, who well now just how exactly willing American Repunlicans would dearly love to show Britain to fail to make an example of a country that had any socialised elements of it's governance merely to make a domestic political point (of course they'd then come in to pick over the corpse - for profit).
Johnson, Patel, Cummings, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Javid, Farage - all of them desperate to hand over our country to America (and no, I'm not even talking about the NHS, though that will undoubtedly happen, a death by a thousand back door cuts) becasue the profit merry-go-round for  those that can surf the coat tails of AMerican Conservatism is so damned lucrative. Thus, you get JOhnson hobnobbing Steve Bannon who a decade ago would have been run out of the country by all sides. You have Nige 'I've done my bit' Farage hopping off to USA straight after the referendum to cash in and hobnob with #45. 

Did anyone say anything when the as the US administration have been routinely demeaning our intelligence and MIlitary officers on the groiund in active war-zones? No. Did these stories even make the UK papers? No. We just slunk away tail between our legs over and over. Taking back our country apparently means supine obeisance to the biggest bully - and, and this point is critical to be told, this is not unique to the current US administration, if you write any of theis off as just Trump then more fool you. EVERY US administration expects total fealty as if wee were a vassal state. ONly difference is now they are more willing to say so in public, and punish any indiscretion via every avenue available. Normally that's fine, but if, for example, you are finding yourself trying to negotiate terms of trade with that nation then you might find yourself well over a barrel, as the US trade representative Lighthizer has repeatedly said, but again, the UK press did not see fit to mention any of this, as the football was on, or Strictly, or another Brexit day...

But so long as they can keep us fighting ourselves, and each other with broader and broader, baser and baser attacks that undermine common sense or co=operation in favour of demonisation and gaslighting denial and lies, then that's just much easier and profitable to them than actually upholding any sense of traditionalk British duty to the people of our degraded nation.

We do it to ourselves, and since Murdoch has exercised his stranglehold upon our media, like a cancer, we have forgotten ourselves, and now have the politicians we deserve. Idiots and Quislings the lot of them

It's always interestng writing things nobody will read

Status Quo wrote:

---

Shhh wrote:

---

I just voted Tory in this poll as they will probably get my vote. This is based on I only have the main three to choose from in my seat, I always look for an independent if possible. People keep there head down about voting Tory the same as they do if they voted Brexit. You are told you are wrong, pure and simple. Its easier to keep quiet and carry on. It always feel to me those to the left of centre have decided they have it all correct and I see non of the "liberal" attitudes or willingness to debate when you are on the right. Your just a wrong-un.

To be honest though, I think politics is in a shocking, shocking state. I don't like Boris, nor some of the tactics used by the Conservatives in this election, deplorable. My vote goes there purely as I have greater dislike for the others, what a sad state of affairs. All parties have lied and campaigned negatively. Neither of the Tory/Labour manifestos add up. I would say that we deserve better but in this social media driven life we build around ourselves, I am not sure that is true.

To me, despite my Brexit stance I have spoken of on here, I think the environment is by far the biggest issue of the day. The Green Party is the only party I have ever belonged to but I don't think there stance in many areas is rooted in any form of reality. Our parties are all chucking out soundbite driven policies but the environment issue requires a world agreement to get it put right and I do not see that happening from a world perspective. We are destroying the planet and I do not see mankind capable of self correcting. That's a cheery thought for you all. I suppose what I am saying is I feel pretty let down by politics and the divisions that Brexit threw up in general. I'll still vote though as I think its a really important thing to do by principle. I just cannot see anybody who represents what my beliefs are and none that inspire me to follow.

---

For the first paragraph, the equal opposing argument is true of the Tories - if you want any form of immigration or to use data-driven methods that are proven to work but that happen to go out against the gut-reaction traditional methods that may mean things like early release but less recidivism, then you are, and always have been branded as weak, hippyish etc, borderline equated to probably gay etc, and just absolutely pie-in-the-sky, indefatigably just plain wrong.

One side looks around ad sees the state the world is, ignores all the bad things and says see what progress we've made things aren't so bad if you'd just stop running the public opinion down.
The other side says things aren't great, social inequality is artificially preserved and exacerbated in order to maintain an upwardly re-distributative society for the benefit of an increasingly vanishingly small number of the population, and in order to try and get people to take action against this, they dwell on the negative aspects of the outcomes and mostly ignore any positives, and fail to cost the proposal even though it is perfectly possible to do so, they prefer to sell it always on the perceived moral benefit.

We need both sides to make the best society, a little of each to create the best policies.
Brexit though has locked us into the American system now, probably permanently, short of some sort of catastrophic revolution-like event, of absolute ideological purity above all else. Your side always right, always excused. The other side always wrong, villified, the devil. Every excuse to ignore any public scrutiny or concern masqueraded as a virtue a strength - if the other side are asking questions, it must be right to ignore it.

So, people are going to hand the Tories a massive majority, and thus reward them for Austerity and the massive cuts to public services, and their continuous shambles in handling Brexit - they created the issue with the terrible referendum process and question; they alone oversaw the negotiations and the lack of professinalism or due care and attention that their ministers and representatives displayed, unperpared fudged figures, bad analysis etc then had the gall to claim they were being put uponm from all sides.

We have the most grasping, rapacious, mendacious groups with their hands on the levers of power, and they are about to carve us all up for their own benefits. 51st staters all, who well now just how exactly willing American Repunlicans would dearly love to show Britain to fail to make an example of a country that had any socialised elements of it's governance merely to make a domestic political point (of course they'd then come in to pick over the corpse - for profit).
Johnson, Patel, Cummings, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Javid, Farage - all of them desperate to hand over our country to America (and no, I'm not even talking about the NHS, though that will undoubtedly happen, a death by a thousand back door cuts) becasue the profit merry-go-round for  those that can surf the coat tails of AMerican Conservatism is so damned lucrative. Thus, you get JOhnson hobnobbing Steve Bannon who a decade ago would have been run out of the country by all sides. You have Nige 'I've done my bit' Farage hopping off to USA straight after the referendum to cash in and hobnob with #45. 

Did anyone say anything when the as the US administration have been routinely demeaning our intelligence and MIlitary officers on the groiund in active war-zones? No. Did these stories even make the UK papers? No. We just slunk away tail between our legs over and over. Taking back our country apparently means supine obeisance to the biggest bully - and, and this point is critical to be told, this is not unique to the current US administration, if you write any of theis off as just Trump then more fool you. EVERY US administration expects total fealty as if wee were a vassal state. ONly difference is now they are more willing to say so in public, and punish any indiscretion via every avenue available. Normally that's fine, but if, for example, you are finding yourself trying to negotiate terms of trade with that nation then you might find yourself well over a barrel, as the US trade representative Lighthizer has repeatedly said, but again, the UK press did not see fit to mention any of this, as the football was on, or Strictly, or another Brexit day...

But so long as they can keep us fighting ourselves, and each other with broader and broader, baser and baser attacks that undermine common sense or co=operation in favour of demonisation and gaslighting denial and lies, then that's just much easier and profitable to them than actually upholding any sense of traditionalk British duty to the people of our degraded nation.

We do it to ourselves, and since Murdoch has exercised his stranglehold upon our media, like a cancer, we have forgotten ourselves, and now have the politicians we deserve. Idiots and Quislings the lot of them

It's always interestng writing things nobody will read

---

 I think you'll be surprised that many will read this SQ. And many will share many of your views. It is strange, but there has always, as far as I recall, been a feeling in this country that the Tories represent many of the things you describe. I think what has changed over the past few years is that entrenchment of perspectives on the one hand and the complete inability of many to see that poor/bad things they have done. 

It still amazes me that the Lib Dems cant get past the student fees issue and having got into bed with the Tories and are, effectively, constantly blamed for the ills of the Coalition Government. The Tories themselves seem to have ridden through that depressing period with stronger support and none of the blame attached. 

The most depressing thing for me is that a strong opposition would have been able to make much capital out of this terrible, terrible Tory government. That they havent is a sad indictment of politics generally and of the Labour party and their leadership currently that that have effectively managed to let the Tories off Scot free. 

Jaggy1876 wrote:

---

Vandenburg wrote:

---

Working class, Sun/Daily Mail readers voting for Tories= Turkeys voting for xmas.

-- Edited by Vandenburg on Monday 2nd of December 2019 01:54:46 PM

---

 I have some in my workplace, and they are all apparent in their views of casual racism against LGBT or migrants etc.

Not all tories are racist or homophobes however all racists vote Tory/Brexit. 

The reason they Tories will win is because deep down we have about 20-30% of people in this country who hold views against others that are different from them. Mainly over 55s. Some keep it quiet others dont.

 

---

Maybe indeed mainly over 55 hold such views but certainly including many Labour voters and other non Tory or Brexit voters. Whether one wants to call all/most of these "racist" and/or "homophobe" or consider that some at least have more not moved with the times may be debatable. But it is not all so cut and dried. Although more point regarding these with the more extreme views.

As has been said, as well as too much intolerance in general and an awful moral compass among many who seek our votes, there is too much pigeonholing. 

JonH comes home wrote:

---

indiana wrote:

---

Jaggy1876 wrote:

---

Vandenburg wrote:

---

Working class, Sun/Daily Mail readers voting for Tories= Turkeys voting for xmas.

-- Edited by Vandenburg on Monday 2nd of December 2019 01:54:46 PM

---

 I have some in my workplace, and they are all apparent in their views of casual racism against LGBT or migrants etc.

Not all tories are racist or homophobes however all racists vote Tory/Brexit. 

The reason they Tories will win is because deep down we have about 20-30% of people in this country who hold views against others that are different from them. Mainly over 55s. Some keep it quiet others dont.

 

---

Maybe indeed mainly over 55 hold such views but certainly including many Labour voters and other non Tory or Brexit voters. Whether one wants to call all/most of these "racist" and/or "homophobe" or consider that some at least have more not moved with the times may be debatable. But it is not all so cut and dried. Although more point regarding these with the more extreme views.

As has been said, as well as too much intolerance in general and an awful moral compass among many who seek our votes, there is too much pigeonholing. 

---

 I think to be honest, the idea that  "racists" vote only Tory or Brexit is unfair. Clearly over time, people with racist or other -ist tendencies have largely been on the Right wing, and so this is not a surprising statement, but I also think on this occasion, Labour has itself got some pretty clear issues with Racist elements (because Anti-Semite views are clearly Racist) and I dont think anyone should presume that there are not Racist supporters of Labour out there as well. I say this as someone who normally would vote Labour if I was in a constituency where  they stood a chance, and therefore it is back to the 2000's for the last time I personally voted Labour.     

---

 I genuinely have not came across anyone with bigoted or prejudiced views that I know of who is not voting Tory. Maybe its different in Scotland. The staunch as they call themselves Union Jack flag bearers are the worst. I had to leave the room the other day when 6 colleagues were talking as I didnt want to be part of the conversation. I have yet to hear a supporter of the SNP or another party even Labour in Scotland that has made any comments that would be classed as such. I have a relative who is voting Tory and again the most intolerant member of the family. I cant really understand in Scotland what the Tory party are about, all I ever hear about is independence from Scottish Tories which is ironic if you think about it. They basically mask their policy and hide the austerity cuts of their campaign by rambling on about independence. The only two parties in Scotland that actually have a manifesto heavy with policy is ironically the ones who are for independence in The Greens and The SNP, again very ironic.

Hmm, do we not count the religious bigotry that certainly still reigns in parts of Scotland and within the ranks of Celtic and Rangers supporters? ( in addition to the other sorts of bigots and various 'ists' that exist here too ). There's plenty good support and 'banter', there is also too much which is well beyond that.

And all of these voting for the Tories?  Err, not exactly.

Apologies for this, in parts peculiar to me, Scottish diversion.

Just listening to Donald Trump who is here for the NATO summit. He was asked about the UK General Election and said, "I will stay out of the election, but I am a fan of Brexit and my friend Boris will do a good job".

I despair