Week 46 - ITF (W15) Solarino, Italy Carpet

ROSAMUND · Futures level

RE: Week 46 - ITF (W15) Solarino, Italy Carpet

Ace Ventura · Tennis legend

ROSAMUND wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
While some of the current gen could be on tour for the next 10 years or so, the group directly after that does look particularly concerning. If you look at the current crop of teenagers listed on OER:

www.openerarankings.com/WTAHome

How many of those do you see eventually getting into slam qualifying contention, let alone the top 100? Emma is a clear standout, and Fran was looking decent before injury derailed her season, but after that it looks very slim pickings indeed. There probably will be a gem or two who you least suspect, but the likes of Ali Collins, who I would have considered one of the better ones, was losing 3 and 1 to someone 3 years younger earlier in the week, albeit someone who did go on to take the title. A lot of them will likely end up in US college and then ultimately fade into obscurity, and there's been so many W15 threads on here in recent weeks of this group of players, and those slightly older like Anna P, K Pitak, that are over pretty much before they start, and if they do manage a win or two (at W15 level) it won't be long until they're on the wrong end of a 1-6 2-6 type defeat.

There is of course Angelica Blake who is not on that list, and I still think that may well be the best option going forward to fill the voids - those who have a British parent and / or have lived / trained here long enough to make them eligible to switch, e.g. Joanna Garland, Melissa Boyden, Mariam Bolkvadze (unlikely) and anyone else who I'm not yet aware of. There are a few younger juniors like Matilda, Sonay, Grace, Marni and others who may do better, but it does generally look like current group of 17-19/20 year olds will be one that will largely pass us by.
Filling in the void this way is what British women's tennis has been doing in the 21 st century. Four out of the 5 best female tennis players representing GB in the last 20 years have no family connection with Britain. Anne Keothavong was the only one born in the UK but the family is from Laos. Elena Baltacha was born in the Ukraine and her father and brother both played football up to a high standard and her mother was an outstanding athlete. Laura Robson was born in Australia and her great grandfather was an Australian Rules football legend, her mother was a pro basketball player and 2 cousins represented Australia in hockey and kayaking. Johanna Konta was born in Australia of Hungarian parents. Her grandfather played football for Hungary and her great father was a trotting champion who is commemorated in a memorial cup. The 5th player is Heather Watson who was born in Guernsey of a British father and a mother born in Papua New Guinea. They have all enjoyed success in a way that has escaped anybody who is British born and bred. As an aside what is he background of Melissa Boyden who is listed as Dutch.

Born in England to two British parents, but moved to the Netherlands as a baby. Seems proud to be Dutch on her social media, and no reference to GB, so I'd imagine a switch would be pretty unlikely unless she thought it was beneficial to her career. I guess her link to the Netherlands is pretty much the same as Emma's is to the UK, not born there, neither were her parents, but it will be all she knows. The main difference is while Emma could represent 3 other countries if she wished, as far as I'm aware, Melissa could only switch to GB.

christ · Futures level

This discussion points out an oddity that I have long wondered about. It appears that there are an awful lot of people that represent a nation at something that have/had the opportunity to represent (multiple) other nations. In my limited experience, most of my acquaintances cannot: they are single-nationality only.

My observation: are athletes/ national representatives more likely to have multi-national heritage, or are they just more likely to search it out in a chase for whichever country will treat them best?

Looking at national cricket teams, for example, it appears that at least half of any given England side has multiple different countries that they could have represented.

(This observation excludes those people that deliberately choose to change nationality with no heritage links)

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

It's my belief that the situation in tennis makes sense because tennis is so much a bigger sport in a lot of other countries and so, when individuals from those countries move here, their children will be more likely to play tennis, get to be good, and then have a choice.

However, if it applies to a lot of other sports where the sport is bigger here than elsewhere that won't make sense any longer.
Unless, for something like cricket, all the players dual-nationality claims are to other cricketing countries because, again, people from those countries moved here and, being mad keen on cricket as their national sport, they also promoted it to their kids etc. etc.

emmsie69 · Top national player

Brits seem more inclined to move abroad, tons of my friends did, in fact 3 of us moved to the US had families and then came back to the UK so that's 4 kids with dual UK/US nationality just in my friendship group including my own Son and that's without touching on the multiple friends that moved to OZ.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

emmsie69 wrote:
Brits seem more inclined to move abroad, tons of my friends did, in fact 3 of us moved to the US had families and then came back to the UK so that's 4 kids with dual UK/US nationality just in my friendship group including my own Son and that's without touching on the multiple friends that moved to OZ.

But we do have net immigration so I don't think it's true that more Brits move abroad ....

In the doubles, Eliz and Destinee lost their match 7-6 6-0

Nix · Futures level

Coup Droit wrote:
It's my belief that the situation in tennis makes sense because tennis is so much a bigger sport in a lot of other countries and so, when individuals from those countries move here, their children will be more likely to play tennis, get to be good, and then have a choice.

However, if it applies to a lot of other sports where the sport is bigger here than elsewhere that won't make sense any longer.
Unless, for something like cricket, all the players dual-nationality claims are to other cricketing countries because, again, people from those countries moved here and, being mad keen on cricket as their national sport, they also promoted it to their kids etc. etc.

I wonder if it's because a lot of the parents of people from other countries play as well. So for instance in my family I loved playing as a child but no one else in my family was interested in sports, so it was just me playing against a wall. By the time I had my children, I played with them a bit but didn't have the skills to coach them, so they mainly played in twice-weekly lessons but not outside of that. In those families where everybody plays, they're going to learn correct technique from the outset but also have better players to play against from the beginning. Whereas anecdotally, when I've visited a lot of tennis clubs in the London area they are disproportionately made up of lots of ex-pats, eg French, Australian, American, who all play decent tennis with their children, in addition to the lessons.

It's probably no coincidence that good players in the UK often come from tennis playing families, like Andy or Jay, and are the younger ones in the family, so get the competition from playing with older siblings. But there just maybe fewer of these families then in other countries.

Football, on the other hand, is much easier to learn from trial and error, by just playing with your mates, and requires much less expensive kit and expensive coaching. So kids can play at the park and hone their skills easily in the garden, the park, the beach etc. It's also easier to practise on your own - David Beckham famously practising his freekicks for hours after everyone else finished training.

RedSquirrel · Satellite level

Ace Ventura wrote:

ROSAMUND wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
While some of the current gen could be on tour for the next 10 years or so, the group directly after that does look particularly concerning. If you look at the current crop of teenagers listed on OER:

www.openerarankings.com/WTAHome

How many of those do you see eventually getting into slam qualifying contention, let alone the top 100? Emma is a clear standout, and Fran was looking decent before injury derailed her season, but after that it looks very slim pickings indeed. There probably will be a gem or two who you least suspect, but the likes of Ali Collins, who I would have considered one of the better ones, was losing 3 and 1 to someone 3 years younger earlier in the week, albeit someone who did go on to take the title. A lot of them will likely end up in US college and then ultimately fade into obscurity, and there's been so many W15 threads on here in recent weeks of this group of players, and those slightly older like Anna P, K Pitak, that are over pretty much before they start, and if they do manage a win or two (at W15 level) it won't be long until they're on the wrong end of a 1-6 2-6 type defeat.

There is of course Angelica Blake who is not on that list, and I still think that may well be the best option going forward to fill the voids - those who have a British parent and / or have lived / trained here long enough to make them eligible to switch, e.g. Joanna Garland, Melissa Boyden, Mariam Bolkvadze (unlikely) and anyone else who I'm not yet aware of. There are a few younger juniors like Matilda, Sonay, Grace, Marni and others who may do better, but it does generally look like current group of 17-19/20 year olds will be one that will largely pass us by.
Filling in the void this way is what British women's tennis has been doing in the 21 st century. Four out of the 5 best female tennis players representing GB in the last 20 years have no family connection with Britain. Anne Keothavong was the only one born in the UK but the family is from Laos. Elena Baltacha was born in the Ukraine and her father and brother both played football up to a high standard and her mother was an outstanding athlete. Laura Robson was born in Australia and her great grandfather was an Australian Rules football legend, her mother was a pro basketball player and 2 cousins represented Australia in hockey and kayaking. Johanna Konta was born in Australia of Hungarian parents. Her grandfather played football for Hungary and her great father was a trotting champion who is commemorated in a memorial cup. The 5th player is Heather Watson who was born in Guernsey of a British father and a mother born in Papua New Guinea. They have all enjoyed success in a way that has escaped anybody who is British born and bred. As an aside what is he background of Melissa Boyden who is listed as Dutch.

Born in England to two British parents, but moved to the Netherlands as a baby. Seems proud to be Dutch on her social media, and no reference to GB, so I'd imagine a switch would be pretty unlikely unless she thought it was beneficial to her career. I guess her link to the Netherlands is pretty much the same as Emma's is to the UK, not born there, neither were her parents, but it will be all she knows. The main difference is while Emma could represent 3 other countries if she wished, as far as I'm aware, Melissa could only switch to GB.

It's a question she was asked last year as to who she would play for when she turned 18. She said she felt Dutch and had only played one tournament in England. Her mother was more pragmatic saying they need to look at what both countries can offer and raising the question how much do the Netherlands want to keep her.

As I posted last year, mother Sally was a top British cyclist.

Michael D · All-time great

And there has been one match still not done here... but predictably Anna + cannot continue their winning streak from last week against the Morderger twins

QF:- Isabelle HAVERLAG (NED) / Anna POPESCU (GBR) CR1631 (836+795) lost to Tayisiya MORDERGER (GER) / Yana MORDERGER (GER) CR579 (296+283) [1] 4-6 2-6