Week 45 - Challenger 80 ($54,160+H) - Knoxville, TN, USA (hard)

Mark1968 · Intermediate Club Player

Week 45 - Challenger 80 ($54,160+H) - Knoxville, TN, USA (hard)

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Mark, in regards to your previous post (not the one above), I agree with most of what you wrote about Liam having had his fair share of opportunities (and maybe more).

But I absolutely don't agree, or see the need for, your last sentence (which I'm not repeating). I think that's completely out of order.

-- Edited by Coup Droit on Sunday 10th of November 2019 11:32:13 AM

Mark1968 · Intermediate Club Player

Coup Droit wrote:
Mark, in regards to your previous post (not the one above), I agree with most of what you wrote about Liam having had his fair share of opportunities (and maybe more).

But I absolutely don't agree, or see the need for, your last sentence (which I'm not repeating). I think that's completely out of order.

-- Edited by Coup Droit on Sunday 10th of November 2019 11:32:13 AM

-- Edited by Mark1968 on Sunday 10th of November 2019 11:55:08 AM

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Nothing to do with the opinion, Mark. Your points about Liam are fine.

I said the 'last sentence' which - now I have to repeat it - said that Jaggy was generally 'held in contempt' and his 'ignorance was staggering'.

I do not agree with that, I do not think it's necessary, and I think that line - and that line only - is out of order.

-- Edited by Coup Droit on Sunday 10th of November 2019 11:52:28 AM

Mark1968 · Intermediate Club Player

Coup Droit wrote:
Nothing to do with the opinion, Mark. Your points about Liam are fine.

I said the 'last sentence' which - now I have to repeat it - said that Jaggy was generally 'held in contempt' and his 'ignorance was staggering'.

I do not agree with that, I do not think it's necessary, and I think that line - and that line only - is out of order.

-- Edited by Coup Droit on Sunday 10th of November 2019 11:52:28 AM

My apologies CD, I am too used to people on the net being offended by others having a different opinion and have removed my comment. I made the mistake because I rush read your post and seemed to miss the bracketed bit.

All I will say about Jaggy is that his disrespect and trolling of our doubles players, is at best mean, and to say that the Tories are running tennis is ignorant down to the fact that it is not true. I was not going to let his bile go unchallenged I will stand by my comments on him.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

All good, Mark

Shhh · Challenger level

I agree with Mark here. We all claim to live in a tolerant society and this board should have broad views and encompass all. If your polictics dicate you do not like Tories fair enough but Jaggy uses this dislike quite constantly and this board allows it to pass unchallenged. Would we stand by and allow a poster to constantly vilify Black people, Muslims, Scots etc etc. Of course not......but Tories....well that seems to be fair game and acceptable. Well some posters on this site probably do vote Tory and I always wince at Jaggy's comments because, well I dsilike intollerance in all its forms, not just those that appeal to my personal agenda.

indiana · Tennis legend

Speaking in general, I'd say that the board ( clearly we are a group of individuals ) allows some things to go unchallenged because in some cases they have been challenged in the past to no effect on original posters, albeit putting an alternative marker down. And some original posters seem not interested in any serious debate, just regurgitating what has been written in similar form many times before.

That can get tiring for respondents and has ended up getting some threads pretty disrupted which are still active tenniswise ( at least all are out here ). Plus there may be a feeling that at times an original poster is actually gagging for responses.

Hence why I am sure that some, particularly these who have been here for some time, choose to ignore some post topics that they have reacted to in the past and might have reacted to again if it was a one/two off. The feeling being let them speak to themselves, but yes the issue then is others may think there is more acceptance, even agreement than there truly is.

It is a bit of a conundrum, which original posters may be well aware of.

Thankfully, I'd say that this sort of thing has never been a particularly big problem on this forum.

Mark1968 · Intermediate Club Player

Shhh wrote:
I agree with Mark here. We all claim to live in a tolerant society and this board should have broad views and encompass all. If your polictics dicate you do not like Tories fair enough but Jaggy uses this dislike quite constantly and this board allows it to pass unchallenged. Would we stand by and allow a poster to constantly vilify Black people, Muslims, Scots etc etc. Of course not......but Tories....well that seems to be fair game and acceptable. Well some posters on this site probably do vote Tory and I always wince at Jaggy's comments because, well I dsilike intollerance in all its forms, not just those that appeal to my personal agenda.

Thank you and well said, you have summed the situation up to perfection, far more comprehensively and eloquently than I could.

There are many other internet forums where he can go to express his Tory hate, it is just not appropriate here on a tennis forum. The only consolation is that he shows himself up for what he his.

Fair play to the moderators here who are very lenient but I think jaggy has gone to far too many times. I know most ignore him but I feel he is spoiling things now, maybe it's time for change?

indiana · Tennis legend

Hi Mark, my post above your last one is a personal post rather than a general moderator post but probably indicates why we have not intervened before on a moderator level. Personally I have once some time ago had a brief private 1-1 discussion with a fellow mod on a related issue. But from memory that has been it.

Grachka · County player

Shhh wrote:
I agree with Mark here. We all claim to live in a tolerant society and this board should have broad views and encompass all. If your polictics dicate you do not like Tories fair enough but Jaggy uses this dislike quite constantly and this board allows it to pass unchallenged. Would we stand by and allow a poster to constantly vilify Black people, Muslims, Scots etc etc. Of course not......but Tories....well that seems to be fair game and acceptable. Well some posters on this site probably do vote Tory and I always wince at Jaggy's comments because, well I dsilike intollerance in all its forms, not just those that appeal to my personal agenda.

Notwithstanding any of the rest of the argument, I doubt we would stand by re: vilification of black people, Muslims etc. as they are, for the most part, facing routine discrimination because of their skin colour, and that's outwith their control. Who you vote for very much is in your control. They are not comparable situations.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Mark1968 wrote:
With regards to JonH's comment above, I think we can all expect too much of players as seniors because of what they achieved as juniors.

The step up is a massive one and many, Liam included are just not good enough to make it, not everybody can be a top 100 player. I have seen this in football as well where players who have represented England Schools, under 21 etc and have looked like world beaters in youth team games etc have not even gone on to make a first team start - it happens all the time.

My opinion on Liam for what it's worth is that with the exception of his win at Wimbledon a few years ago I don't see anything that is anything more than average, there are no obvious weapons as such etc. With better confidence I think he can achieve more and overall I believe he has done very well so far considering everything, but a top 100 player, probably not unfortunately.

Thank you for your comment emmsie69.

Mmm. I'm not so sure. I think it's easy to assume someone who does well in juniors will progress, but I also think those who dont make it shouldn't be let off. They didn't fulfil their early potential, and should be disappointed in that. No shame, but certainly disappointment.

And those who come through late but had no early obvious potential, then they deserve real credit for having really done something to breakthrough against any early predictions.

christ · Futures level

Grachka wrote:
Shhh wrote:
I agree with Mark here. We all claim to live in a tolerant society and this board should have broad views and encompass all. If your polictics dicate you do not like Tories fair enough but Jaggy uses this dislike quite constantly and this board allows it to pass unchallenged. Would we stand by and allow a poster to constantly vilify Black people, Muslims, Scots etc etc. Of course not......but Tories....well that seems to be fair game and acceptable. Well some posters on this site probably do vote Tory and I always wince at Jaggy's comments because, well I dsilike intollerance in all its forms, not just those that appeal to my personal agenda.
Notwithstanding any of the rest of the argument, I doubt we would stand by re: vilification of black people, Muslims etc. as they are, for the most part, facing routine discrimination because of their skin colour, and that's outwith their control. Who you vote for very much is in your control. They are not comparable situations.

No.

Vilification is not acceptable.

Tories should not be vilified on a tennis forum, but neither should Jaggy be. It is nothing to do with choice, as you imply, because (e.g.) religion is very much a choice too. Shhh noted that vilification is unacceptable, noting some areas where everyone agreed.

PS - does anyone else see any irony in Jaggy feeling that Liam Broady is a victim of Tory bias, given his family circumstance?

brittak · Satellite level

We had all of this debate back in the summer (see Queens thread) and I have barely posted since because of the tone of that discussion. So please can we stick to the tennis on these threads.

I would suggest these discussions could take place in dedicated and separate threads elsewhere on the forum where those who want to read and debate them can do so leaving the tennis/player/tournament threads free for those who dont.

Thanks

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

christ wrote:
Grachka wrote:
Shhh wrote:
I agree with Mark here. We all claim to live in a tolerant society and this board should have broad views and encompass all. If your polictics dicate you do not like Tories fair enough but Jaggy uses this dislike quite constantly and this board allows it to pass unchallenged. Would we stand by and allow a poster to constantly vilify Black people, Muslims, Scots etc etc. Of course not......but Tories....well that seems to be fair game and acceptable. Well some posters on this site probably do vote Tory and I always wince at Jaggy's comments because, well I dsilike intollerance in all its forms, not just those that appeal to my personal agenda.
Notwithstanding any of the rest of the argument, I doubt we would stand by re: vilification of black people, Muslims etc. as they are, for the most part, facing routine discrimination because of their skin colour, and that's outwith their control. Who you vote for very much is in your control. They are not comparable situations.
No.
Vilification is not acceptable.
Tories should not be vilified on a tennis forum, but neither should Jaggy be. It is nothing to do with choice, as you imply, because (e.g.) religion is very much a choice too. Shhh noted that vilification is unacceptable, noting some areas where everyone agreed.

PS - does anyone else see any irony in Jaggy feeling that Liam Broady is a victim of Tory bias, given his family circumstance?

Interesting. I don't see religion really as being a 'choice'. Certainly it isn't for a lot of people I know (well, in theory perhaps, but not in reality, at any rate).

And as such agree with Grachka that Shh's categories are not quite the same, as they are part of the discrimination categories based on non-optional attributes (race, gender, religion (for many), disability, etc.). As opposed to politics which is a matter of choice (although some of my US friends say it's what you're born to but, in that case, I think one 'be' Democrat of whatever but one shouldn't vote) but maybe that's debatable too.

However, vilification is unpleasant, unnecessary and boring, whatever the target.

And yes, having had a quick, interesting and fun chat with Mr Broady senior this summer, he's most certainly an awful long way removed from your classic Tory!!! (although what his private political views are, I've no idea - we didn't talk politics!)