Week 31 - WTA Premier ($876k) - San Jose, USA - Hard

Helen40 · Grand Slam Champion

RE: Week 31 - WTA Premier ($876k) - San Jose, USA - Hard

ROSAMUND · Futures level

Re age of players making it don't forget that Jo only made it when she reached the age of 24. Up to then she only had 7 match wins on the WTA tour in her whole career. Nobody would have predicted the success she would later have and that includes people involved with the LTA and other former players still involved with the game. Secondly injuries have not helped. Katie Boulter looked booked for success after the Fed Cup until a serious back injury intervened. Jodie Anne Burrage was making progress until she had serious ankle problems again. Katy Dunne also has injury problems. Gabi Taylor and Emma Raducanu have both been attached to Fed Cup teams and then gone backwards rather than forwards. As mentioned not sure about Emma. Far more success in 2018 and has hardly played of late. As far as our players are concerned we live in hope.

Status Quo · Intermediate Club Player

So far this season, Excluding Johanna (qv) all our other Women combined have: 8 GB main draw Slam or full WTA Tour (i.e. where it really counts, and in the place where success transcends rabid fan corners like here)

Which is #!$*

But: for us over the last 25 years or so it's actually quite good - probably slightly above average when you exclude our top (and currently massive) outlier

We're just #!$* and we apparently always will be - no one has any plan or appetite for change, just mitigation, amelioration and excuses.

Can't blame the players they grow up in and come through a sysytem that almost treats success as a pleasant surprise rather than the goal.

Add in the drain now routinely offered by the Borwell push for US Colleges - tennis pursued as primarily an amenable and accessible route/pathway to access a subsidised quality education overseas for generally well-to-do plummy Middle (& middle-class) Englanders (Scots, Welsh, etc) to be used for that purpose rather than the competition and sports career per se - and we're sort of stuck as an anachronism: what do you mean you like tennis for the game itself? Ain't no money in that!

Cue more endless navel gazing and circular discussion...

Michael D · All-time great

Status Quo wrote:
So far this season, Excluding Johanna (qv) all our other Women combined have: 8 GB main draw Slam or full WTA Tour (i.e. where it really counts, and in the place where success transcends rabid fan corners like here)

Which is #!$*

But: for us over the last 25 years or so it's actually quite good - probably slightly above average when you exclude our top (and currently massive) outlier

We're just #!$* and we apparently always will be - no one has any plan or appetite for change, just mitigation, amelioration and excuses.

Can't blame the players they grow up in and come through a sysytem that almost treats success as a pleasant surprise rather than the goal.

Add in the drain now routinely offered by the Borwell push for US Colleges - tennis pursued as primarily an amenable and accessible route/pathway to access a subsidised quality education overseas for generally well-to-do plummy Middle (& middle-class) Englanders (Scots, Welsh, etc) to be used for that purpose rather than the competition and sports career per se - and we're sort of stuck as an anachronism: what do you mean you like tennis for the game itself? Ain't no money in that!

Cue more endless navel gazing and circular discussion...

Cough, cough, if you must back the Status Quo.... wink

Ace Ventura · Tennis legend

And of those 8 wins, while still of course wins, and good ones at that in many cases (considering the close respective rankings of our players who were often WCs or Qs themselves) - 3 were at Wimbledon against 2 Qs and a LL ranked 108, 121 and 165. Harriet also beat 103 Lapko (who is pretty much a walking bye in 2019 and is 258 in the Race despite playing 15 events), and then Hon, a lower ranked MDWC at 157, in Brisbane. Katie beat a struggling veteran at the AO who has not played a match since February and literally has no wins at any level since the 2018 US Open, as well as a Q in Acapulco (Perrin) ranked 148. Maia obiously beat 481 Tara in Nottingham - so that turned out to be a guaranteed win largely thanks to the WC system, which a lot of countries don't get.

I'm probably just nit picking there for sake of it and you always do get MDWCs and Qs in draws, some who have reached WTA finals recently like Kawa and Tig, but what I mean is, pretty much every one of those wins could have been on the ITF circuit - even W25 level as we saw Diatchenko appear here at Bolton ranked in the top 100, some would have been favourites and I doubt anyone would have been longer than 6/4 pre match, and there's not really one 'wow' result which we had a few in 2018 (Swan-Begu, Dart-Kr Pliskova, Boulter-Sakkari, just off the top of my head) - those that really inspire optimism and encouragment that they can indeed get to the next level where we all want them to get to (Dart beating Kontaveit would have been an example of this). Katie B's injury has been the biggest blow as she had additional top 100 wins in 2018 and was looking like she would establish herself in the top 100, which may have generally changed some people's mindset on their overall outlook, so that's very unfortunate, and she'll have a lot of work just to get back to the level she was at in January, especially as she has missed 'WC season' on a less neutral surface to potentially offer a short cut.

Top 300 wise, the women's side (for now) looks undoubtedly stronger than the men's side (Jubb, Draper and co might change that in a year or two), but even with Konta, I'd probably rather the women's side was the same as the men's, maybe (borderline as Konta has been a relevation and has carried GB hopes in recent months). Basically, I'd just love to have 3 or 4 ranked 40-70 pretty much as Harry mentioned earlier - similar to our leading men - those who can get to ATP 250 QFs, SFs or even the final as Cam and Dan managed this year, and while they may not really turn heads at slam level (bar Edmund's surprise run at AO 18), like to really capture the general sports fans imagination (I guess like Jo these past couple of months), at least they'll pretty much always be in the slams, more in the limelight, more relevant, and may win 1 or 2 matches to really help their bank balances. I did agree with a lot of what Harry posted on the previous page - it's like I could have written it mself.

-- Edited by Ace Ventura on Wednesday 31st of July 2019 01:23:08 PM

ROSAMUND · Futures level

The other player not mentioned and in the what might have been categories is Laura Robson. Had she not had her wrist problem after Wimbledon 2013 she might well have matched or bettered Jo's career. Imagine if they had been successful at the same time! The what might have been and never will I'm afraid.

ROSAMUND · Futures level

It is not as if the past was anything to write home about. After Jo Durie reached the last 16 of the US Open in 1991, Sam Smith was the next Briton in 1998 at Wimbledon to reach the last 16 of a Grand Slam. Fast forward to the US Open of 2012 when Laura Robson was the next player to achieve this feat. Thankfully since then Laura managed it again at Wimbledon 2013 and Johanna Konta has done it 7 times since the 2015 US Open. It has to be said that Anne Keothavong and Elena Baltacha ensured a British presence in WTA events from c. 2001 to 2013.

Status Quo · Intermediate Club Player

ROSAMUND wrote:
The other player not mentioned and in the what might have been categories is Laura Robson. Had she not had her wrist problem after Wimbledon 2013 she might well have matched or bettered Jo's career. Imagine if they had been successful at the same time! The what might have been and never will I'm afraid.

As a supposedly leading, or aspiring to be leading, tennis nation, we should have more than enough depth of talent to not miss any single player.
Perhaps the understudy might not quite scale the missing players absolute heights, but they should certainly be capable of carrying out, say, a WTA career.

I think we should have at LEAST half a dozen players that week-in-week-out >90% of the time they play a tour event, it should be a WTA tour event - not a $125K but an International or above, and only starting that event in in qualifying at Premier 5 or above.
And that is at a very minimum.

ROSAMUND · Futures level

Status Quo wrote:
ROSAMUND wrote:
The other player not mentioned and in the what might have been categories is Laura Robson. Had she not had her wrist problem after Wimbledon 2013 she might well have matched or bettered Jo's career. Imagine if they had been successful at the same time! The what might have been and never will I'm afraid.
As a supposedly leading, or aspiring to be leading, tennis nation, we should have more than enough depth of talent to not miss any single player.
Perhaps the understudy might not quite scale the missing players absolute heights, but they should certainly be capable of carrying out, say, a WTA career.
I think we should have at LEAST half a dozen players that week-in-week-out >90% of the time they play a tour event, it should be a WTA tour event - not a $125K but an International or above, and only starting that event in in qualifying at Premier 5 or above.
And that is at a very minimum.

I think the idea that GB is going to have at least 6 players competing regularly on the main WTA tour is never going to happen even though the LTA has had millions of pounds at its disposal. We simply haven't got 6 players who look top 50 or even top 100 material. Perhaps you'd be better following the USA or Czech Republic as they seem able to produce a steady stream of top players. However we should not forget that Laura did look champion material as evidenced at the 2012 US Open. She was also the top ranked teenager in the WTA rankings in 2013.

HarryGem · Club Coach

ROSAMUND wrote:
Status Quo wrote:
ROSAMUND wrote:
The other player not mentioned and in the what might have been categories is Laura Robson. Had she not had her wrist problem after Wimbledon 2013 she might well have matched or bettered Jo's career. Imagine if they had been successful at the same time! The what might have been and never will I'm afraid.
As a supposedly leading, or aspiring to be leading, tennis nation, we should have more than enough depth of talent to not miss any single player.
Perhaps the understudy might not quite scale the missing players absolute heights, but they should certainly be capable of carrying out, say, a WTA career.
I think we should have at LEAST half a dozen players that week-in-week-out >90% of the time they play a tour event, it should be a WTA tour event - not a $125K but an International or above, and only starting that event in in qualifying at Premier 5 or above.
And that is at a very minimum.
I think the idea that GB is going to have at least 6 players competing regularly on the main WTA tour is never going to happen even though the LTA has had millions of pounds at its disposal. We simply haven't got 6 players who look top 50 or even top 100 material. Perhaps you'd be better following the USA or Czech Republic as they seem able to produce a steady stream of top players. However we should not forget that Laura did look champion material as evidenced at the 2012 US Open. She was also the top ranked teenager in the WTA rankings in 2013.

Sorry but we should never say never. I'm not going to go and follow another nation per se but equally I don't think it an unreasonable hope that we can have 3 or 4 players in the top 100. You mention Laura but where is she now? I know she has had a bad wrist injury but so did Del Potro and he came back. I question whether she has got the fight in her to do it, injuries permitting of course. I don't want to be too down on our players but some of the perfomances this year really haven't been good enough. Sometimes it isn't that you lose it is how you lose.

the addict · Tennis legend

Laura is training, but has had problems with a hip imjury. I rather doubt whether she'll be able to make much of a comeback.

HarryGem · Club Coach

the addict wrote:
Laura is training, but has had problems with a hip imjury. I rather doubt whether she'll be able to make much of a comeback.

Thanks for the info. Sad news. Hope she can make a decent comeback but going to be hard without a ranking.

Ace Ventura · Tennis legend

I don't think we'll ever have 5 or 6 players in the top 100 at the same time in my remaining years either, unless there's some serious loop holes exploited. I mean, I doubt many would have thought Kazakhstan would have 3 in the top 100 a few years ago, and that has happened, although the ironic part is, I mentioned yesterday that Russia had 11 players ranked higher than Watson, our #2, yet they are generally in a bit of a slump with Sharapova's woes, Kasatkina falling (she is their current #1 at 40 which must be one of the lowest ranked Russian #1s ever), and it looks like in Rybakina, they have lost what could have been their biggest hope (to Kazakhstan).

GB womens tennis hasn't exactly been thriving over the years as is often pointed out, on here and in general, with constant reference to to the likes of Wade, Durie, then Smith etc. so there are issues and well known ones, like the expense, often seen as middle/upper class, parents need significant money etc. etc. but at face value, there really shouldn't be any reason why GB doesn't have as many top players as a lot of the other nations frequently mentioned - we literally have the most famous tennis tournament in the world on our doorstep, an event where even if you're not really interested in tennis, you can't really avoid - everyone will know when Wimbledon is on, unless they are living under a rock. The LTA/AELTC can offer extensive big wildcards, more than most nations, so if you're talented enough it can help push you on your journey quicker, and it is the most lucrative women's sport, a sport where pretty much every sports fan will have heard of the WTA's biggest stars - Serena, Maria, Venus, all first name players, so the platform is certainly there to make yourself rich and a household name - surely an incentive / inspiration for any talented young female athlete?

The UK generally seem to do quite well in other women's sports - the football team are always thereabouts in the biggest tournaments, the likes of Lucy Bronze will probably be considered one of the best players in the world, Georgia Hall won a recent golf major, and I don't know if she's any good or just media friendly, but you often hear about Charley Hull. The hockey team won Olympic gold are again often do reasonably well in other events, and there's some successful household names in athletics like Ennis, KJT, Asher-Smith, so for GB to have one player in the top 100 or 110 is pretty grim - it doesn't even have to be top end stars, just players floating around the 70s like Peterson, Hercog etc. would suffice. Even if Slovakia are kind of tied with us in the Strongest Nation, they still have more WTA level players like Kuzmova, Zidansek (both 21), Cibulkova, Rybarikova, and they don't have a single WTA event. France have a slam, but less WTA events than GB (albeit more ITFs), yet they have 5 in the top 80. There's been talk of big changes for years, these new academies at Loughborough and Stirling etc. but I'd be pretty surprised if the situation changed in the short to mid-term future.

indiana · Tennis legend

ROSAMUND wrote:
It is not as if the past was anything to write home about. After Jo Durie reached the last 16 of the US Open in 1991, Sam Smith was the next Briton in 1998 at Wimbledon to reach the last 16 of a Grand Slam. Fast forward to the US Open of 2012 when Laura Robson was the next player to achieve this feat. Thankfully since then Laura managed it again at Wimbledon 2013 and Johanna Konta has done it 7 times since the 2015 US Open. It has to be said that Anne Keothavong and Elena Baltacha ensured a British presence in WTA events from c. 2001 to 2013.

Yes, it's good to see you and others put into context the general lack of achievement from GB women in the last 30 years for whatever variety of reasons. We went for many years with no-one in the top 100 before such as Sam Smith and later Bally and Anne K, moving on to Laura and Heather, gave us a little foothold again.

But then over the last few years, apart from Jo, we began to assemble for us a relatively big group of decent younger players. Yes, of course, we ultimately want top 100 and beyond players but numbers and a base is a decent starting point.

When in June last year our top 10 averaged out at 190.1 in the WRs, our best since at least September 1992 ( blob didn't go back further than that ), then I got even more enthused.

Now this year has been disappointing, especially given the progress so many made in 2018 and their general age. BUT these players are generally certainly not going to go away any time soon, and some will surely push on again, maybe one or two to unexpected degrees. Since that 190.1 average ( an average yes for now heading too quickly towards 210 - though that would still be better than at the start of last year ) fresh players have joined our top 10 ( Naiktha, Jodie, Maia and Fran replacing Naomi, Laura, Gabi and Tara for now at least ).

A disappointing year, yes, but to me we still remain better in pure and potential ranking terms than in plenty previous times and I think plenty to be interested in and hopefully enjoy in the next few years.

This year I have first read despair about the first few months then more the year to this point ( which I have a bit more sympathy with ) and some more general despair. Far too much despair in my book

The reasons we have not been and are not so good as a tennis nation have been and can be debated at length but relatively for us right now things aren't so bad.

paulisi · Tennis legend

Heather sneaks through in the doubles