ITF launches ITF World Tennis Tour

Elegant Point · Satellite level

ITF launches ITF World Tennis Tour

Michael D · All-time great

Elegant Point wrote:

www.tennisworldusa.org/tennis/news/ATP_Tennis/67012/pro-player-s-father-reveals-all-the-bad-things-around-the-itf-world-tour/

Article about Peter Hellers struggle with the new ITF world tour........ I am still failing to see how these changes actually benefit the players or tennis community

It's a great and very intelligently written letter! As the father of the 'new' ITF no. 2, who cannot see any benefit in the new system, it deserves a reply from the ITF... but they won't because they can't... They don't have a real defence on nearly all the major points he has raised.

Born2WinTennis · Club Coach

That sounds crazy. I thought the aim was to reduce the professional player base to around 750 players. So if challenger acceptance is under ATP 400 then what are the remaining 350 to do? If they can only play futures then won't we just end up with only 400 ATP world ranked players?

JonH · All-time great

this extract says it all really

"A system with two different rankings can never produce better results. Let me try to explain why: There are four reserved slots in the main draw of a Challenger for ITF players and three in the qualifying draw.

If there are three Challengers in one week, you have to be number 21 in the ITF ranking to be sure to get a slot. A look at the ranking shows, that to be number 20 in the ranking you have to win four or five tournaments and score more good results in other events, which is not easy.

If you have managed to do so, you can compete in Challenger tournaments starting from ZERO. You now have to play as many events as possible to collect enough points to climb in the ATP ranking so high that you do not need your ITF points anymore.

Assumed you manage to climb to number 400 on the ATP list within one year, which is not that bad. What to do now? Being number 400 ATP - it is tough to compete in a Challenger regularly (last directly accepted player at this week Challengers is ranked 365th) - you have to go back to ITF level and start from ZERO because in the meanwhile you have lost all your ITF points, leaving you trying to climb in the ranking while losing your ATP points.".

indiana · Tennis legend

Yes I was never convinced re how the ATP ranked numbers would settle down as.

Someone here suggested that the current number ranked would be increased by challengers now having 48 man main draws. I thought any effect there would be limited ( as early doors seems to be case ) and much more significant will be the decrease once a load of players with just 25K counters have these no longer counting, and ATP rankings are for just challengers and above.

Like so much about the changes the suggested effects don't appear to add up anything much like the storyline, as this further well written letter points out.

The reserved slots for leading ITF ranked and juniors, on the face of it a good idea, are really just there to mitigate some of the effects of the two ranking lists system, particularly for good young up and comers, but as so well pointed out still leaves many not helped out.

They have broken the system and the sticking plasters are not much use to many, and that is far from just the ( too? ) often derided "journeymen/women".

-- Edited by indiana on Wednesday 27th of February 2019 02:56:07 PM

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

JonH wrote:
this extract says it all really

"A system with two different rankings can never produce better results. Let me try to explain why: There are four reserved slots in the main draw of a Challenger for ITF players and three in the qualifying draw.

If there are three Challengers in one week, you have to be number 21 in the ITF ranking to be sure to get a slot. A look at the ranking shows, that to be number 20 in the ranking you have to win four or five tournaments and score more good results in other events, which is not easy.

If you have managed to do so, you can compete in Challenger tournaments starting from ZERO. You now have to play as many events as possible to collect enough points to climb in the ATP ranking so high that you do not need your ITF points anymore.

Assumed you manage to climb to number 400 on the ATP list within one year, which is not that bad. What to do now? Being number 400 ATP - it is tough to compete in a Challenger regularly (last directly accepted player at this week Challengers is ranked 365th) - you have to go back to ITF level and start from ZERO because in the meanwhile you have lost all your ITF points, leaving you trying to climb in the ranking while losing your ATP points.".

That was exactly the section that jumped out at me yesterday when I read the article. The whole system is setting people up to fail.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

JonH wrote:
this extract says it all really

"A system with two different rankings can never produce better results. Let me try to explain why: There are four reserved slots in the main draw of a Challenger for ITF players and three in the qualifying draw.

If there are three Challengers in one week, you have to be number 21 in the ITF ranking to be sure to get a slot. A look at the ranking shows, that to be number 20 in the ranking you have to win four or five tournaments and score more good results in other events, which is not easy.

If you have managed to do so, you can compete in Challenger tournaments starting from ZERO. You now have to play as many events as possible to collect enough points to climb in the ATP ranking so high that you do not need your ITF points anymore.

Assumed you manage to climb to number 400 on the ATP list within one year, which is not that bad. What to do now? Being number 400 ATP - it is tough to compete in a Challenger regularly (last directly accepted player at this week Challengers is ranked 365th) - you have to go back to ITF level and start from ZERO because in the meanwhile you have lost all your ITF points, leaving you trying to climb in the ranking while losing your ATP points.".

But that last bit doesn't make sense to me : although you've lost all your ITF points, it's not ITF points that count first in ITF tournaments but ATP points. So if you drop back down to ITFs, you will still be fine as you've still got an ATP ranking. Indeed, if you've got an ATP ranking of 400 you'll have no problem at all getting into good ITF events.

JonH · All-time great

Coup Droit wrote:
JonH wrote:
this extract says it all really

"A system with two different rankings can never produce better results. Let me try to explain why: There are four reserved slots in the main draw of a Challenger for ITF players and three in the qualifying draw.

If there are three Challengers in one week, you have to be number 21 in the ITF ranking to be sure to get a slot. A look at the ranking shows, that to be number 20 in the ranking you have to win four or five tournaments and score more good results in other events, which is not easy.

If you have managed to do so, you can compete in Challenger tournaments starting from ZERO. You now have to play as many events as possible to collect enough points to climb in the ATP ranking so high that you do not need your ITF points anymore.

Assumed you manage to climb to number 400 on the ATP list within one year, which is not that bad. What to do now? Being number 400 ATP - it is tough to compete in a Challenger regularly (last directly accepted player at this week Challengers is ranked 365th) - you have to go back to ITF level and start from ZERO because in the meanwhile you have lost all your ITF points, leaving you trying to climb in the ranking while losing your ATP points.".
But that last bit doesn't make sense to me : although you've lost all your ITF points, it's not ITF points that count first in ITF tournaments but ATP points. So if you drop back down to ITFs, you will still be fine as you've still got an ATP ranking. Indeed, if you've got an ATP ranking of 400 you'll have no problem at all getting into good ITF events.

I think the point was that whilst going back to ITF level again and trying to rebuild ITF points to get one of those 7 spots at each event reserved for ITF players, you focus on that level and end up losing your ATP points in the process. So you fall from your well won 400 position on ATP in the process of getting ITF points. If succesful you may get more ITF places on the Challenger tour, but your ranking needs to be built up again; It sort of becomes circular and impossible to build out of. I think Born2Win mentions above that the ATP/ITF envisaged maybe 750 pro players, but this will no doubt end up being more like 400 or so sustained at Challenger and above level.

RedSquirrel · Satellite level

Qualifying draw size will increase to 32 from 1 April with 8 players progressing to the main draw.

indiana · Tennis legend

RedSquirrel wrote:
Qualifying draw size will increase to 32 from 1 April with 8 players progressing to the main draw.

It's a start ...

Though "one small step for man ..." stops there.

the addict · Tennis legend

Wow, an opportunity for an extra SIX players to compete. hmm

(2 extra qualifiers, so 2 less DA's into main draw)

-- Edited by the addict on Wednesday 27th of February 2019 11:08:04 PM

The Optimist · ATP qualifying

They seemed to have moved to make tennis even more of an elite sport. If you are at the top of the junior rankings you get a reserved place in a 25K. Those at the top have travelled extensively either at the expense of their association or their parents, and often follow a reduced school curriculum. If you do not have the means to extensively play the junior ITF circuit, there is no real way in. I am wondering the impact of these changes on those countries where even the best juniors rarely play junior ITFs - Spain, USA, Australia, South Africa etc.

Strongbow · All-time great

The intention was to reduce the number of players by 50%. Looks as though it will succeed. Aided and abbetted by the LTA in not having UK 15ks. cry cry cry

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

Here is part of a Twitter explanation of one of the major issues/anomalies caused by the duel ranking system.

Twitter comments from Paul Timmons

@JaredHiltzik is an ex college grad who joined the tour and got inside top 300. Now due to less CH spots he can't get into tournaments despite being ranked 355. Ivan Nedelko is 32, ranked 413. He can now play lots of CH's because he has an ITF ranking. Jared doesn't have an ITF ranking because he had no need to play those events. So now what does he do? Lose his ATP ranking to go play futures to build up that ranking? Why do we want to reward a 32 year old with CH spots over Jared because he's beaten weaker opposition at the Futures level? Good players are stuck in limbo because of the awful two tier system. Jared could have gone back to futures, won a couple of matches and got his ranking up. Instead a guy at 355 is facing the prospect of losing his ATP ranking because the system doesn't give him the chance to play. It's mental.

indiana · Tennis legend

Got to surely look at Challengers and increase the qualifying field from much more than err 4 even if the main fields are now 48.

To heck with this oh we can play the whole tournament within a week. Give decent level players a chance to play decent level tennis!!

The ITF ranking and junior ranking spots into tournaments are a fairly basic way planners clearly thought many of the clear problems with a two tier system might be over overcome - yay we can help push on some top juniors etc. Helps some yes but not unsurprisingly, in an untested and seemingly far from well thought through major change, more and more presumably not properly considered anomalies are being repeatedly pointed out, quite apart from entry lists and likely chances to compete becoming so much more confusing. Some of the confusion will lessen over time, not so the anomalies unless seriously addessed by people who care.

And decent players are left unable to play or leaving decisions until very late with no doubt much more inconvenience and higher travel costs.

-- Edited by indiana on Thursday 28th of February 2019 11:59:21 PM