Week 35 & 36 - US Open New York, USA - Hard

Michael D · All-time great

Week 35 & 36 - US Open New York, USA - Hard

Ace Ventura · Tennis legend

Michael D wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
Why does it matter anyway whether it is a man or a women umpiring? Just had a quick check and of the past 7 women's slam finals, 4 have been men, including Serena vs Kerber a couple of months ago. Just like Cicak has done men's finals and Alison Hughes is in the chair tonight for the men. Tennis is one of the few sports where it's pretty much accepted as a mixed sport and shouldn't be an issue who does the umpiring and should be selected on who they see as the best option regardless of gender.
It shouldn't matter I agree. The manner of officiating yesterday did matter though... And I agree with Indy's last points too, having just read them.

-- Edited by Michael D on Sunday 9th of September 2018 10:10:52 AM

But as has been said before, female umpires have given Serena point penalities in US Open finals before, Eva Asderaki in the 2011 match against Stosur for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAmKdeRmJHQ 29:45 - the commentator's were saying they 'should play a let there' but Asderaki gave the point (and game, BP) to Stosur and then Serena starts kicking off about 'aren't you the one who 5crewed me before' - suggesting this female umpire had done her wrong before.

Whether Ramos should have given the warning for the coaching or the game penalty for abuse is open to debate, but the umpire was perfectly within his right to do that should he see fit and he did. I still don't see why it matters whether it was a man or a woman and Serena is obviously a volatile person who has previous incidents with both.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

I agree with the previous poster(s) that one bad incident does not mean that I've lost 'all respect' for Serena - she's a great champion, a great tennis player, having achieved so much, against all the odds and in the face of a lot of discrimination.
But it would be lovely if once - just once - she came out and said 'the red mist came down, I said a few things I shouldn't. So, I still thing Ramos was wrong but I'm sorry for a couple of those things I said'..... Wouldn't that be nice???
I do not think a man would be treated differently in that I've seen zillions of matches and not seen a man smash his racket and not be penalised, or call the umpire a liar, a thief and threaten to undermine his/her career, and not be sanctioned: if anyone can think of an example, I'd like to see it and take back the statement.
The coaching violation was a 50:50 call, in my view a little hasty, but not wrong as such. Ramos has given similar warnings to Djoko and the Cecchinato, and other men, so I don't see that as a male thing either.
I agree that, as with the law, there is zero point having a rule if it cannot be properly enforced - a rule/law's enforceability is part and parcel of it being a rule/law. As such, if there is a lot of problem with umpires missing coaches coaching from the stands, or letting it go because he/she knows that everyone's doing it and sanctioning that one instance will look awful on playback because all the ones he/she missed will be pointed out, then just get rid of the rule.
And I am utterly against women umpiring women's matches and men umpiring men's matches (the two have to go together, surely). I think it sends out all the wrong messages.

scottie1 · Futures level

Coup Droit wrote:
I agree with the previous poster(s) that one bad incident does not mean that I've lost 'all respect' for Serena - she's a great champion, a great tennis player, having achieved so much, against all the odds and in the face of a lot of discrimination.
But it would be lovely if once - just once - she came out and said 'the red mist came down, I said a few things I shouldn't. So, I still thing Ramos was wrong but I'm sorry for a couple of those things I said'..... Wouldn't that be nice???
I do not think a man would be treated differently in that I've seen zillions of matches and not seen a man smash his racket and not be penalised, or call the umpire a liar, a thief and threaten to undermine his/her career, and not be sanctioned: if anyone can think of an example, I'd like to see it and take back the statement.
The coaching violation was a 50:50 call, in my view a little hasty, but not wrong as such. Ramos has given similar warnings to Djoko and the Cecchinato, and other men, so I don't see that as a male thing either.
I agree that, as with the law, there is zero point having a rule if it cannot be properly enforced - a rule/law's enforceability is part and parcel of it being a rule/law. As such, if there is a lot of problem with umpires missing coaches coaching from the stands, or letting it go because he/she knows that everyone's doing it and sanctioning that one instance will look awful on playback because all the ones he/she missed will be pointed out, then just get rid of the rule.
And I am utterly against women umpiring women's matches and men umpiring men's matches (the two have to go together, surely). I think it sends out all the wrong messages.

It is a good point you have raised about the red mist coming down it happened in the Stosur match where she threatened the umpire also the Clijsters match both in US Open maybe she feels under extreme pressure in her home tournament and cannot handle defeat. I have never been a Serena fan great player yes but has no class as a person like her sister Venus just my opinion

Mervatron2 · Challenger qualifying

Shame that the whole circus takes away from Osaka's amazing tournament.

You can argue that once Serena is being picked on, twice the argument gets thinner but three times now Serena has done this in the US open. What is the common denominator?

indiana · Tennis legend

Mervatron2 wrote:
Shame that the whole circus takes away from Osaka's amazing tournament.

You can argue that once Serena is being picked on, twice the argument gets thinner but three times now Serena has done this in the US open. What is the common denominator?

Serena would probably say "the US Open".

indiana · Tennis legend

Anyway, Serena is fined $17,000 for her code violations and further folk like Sue Barker and Marion Bartloli have been weighing in on the men get away with more thing.

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/45463752

I know noone has come back to CD with specific examples of men doing similar re the verbal abuse issue and getting away with it, and I can't now but my feeling is that some probably have.

It was monotonous, a little funny at times in her illogicality but I never found it at all shocking or threatening as I think it was the Stosur one with awful threats. One can pick on words, although I really wouldn't say "thief" ( in the final you stole my point stuff which seemed to be the final straw for Ramos ) was one and say by the letter of the law etc but I still remain of the view that it had the feeling of being OTT by Ramos and unnecessary. This was a player who had lost the plot yes but it felt to me anyway so unthreatening and not truly abusive on this occasion.

I wonder if and how Osaka assigns blame for the effects on her experience. The crowd probably are in there and I wouldn't be surprised if Ramos figured, maybe more than Serena, but hey I'm off into wild speculation ...

flamingowings · All-time great

Fognini called a female umpire a w*ore last year. Novak has said suck my d*ck or something as well but these were said in Italian/Serbian rather than English.

That is a "fine" - Nick K got more for his gesture at Queens with the water bottle.

I remain completely disgusted by the whole thing. Osaka has been abused online by people saying that she stole the crown from Serena and to give it back. Also people think her win should be asterisked like it wasn't earnt.

-- Edited by flamingowings on Sunday 9th of September 2018 09:51:34 PM

indiana · Tennis legend

I assume that it's just pretty much the standard code violations fine. Not sure they can say bring the 'occasion' into it although I assume there is a relationship to the size of tournament. Nothing to Serena but clearly would be OTT for a 15K and other lower levels.

Need to ask Sue Barker too for her examples from courtside.

-- Edited by indiana on Sunday 9th of September 2018 09:59:45 PM

flamingowings · All-time great

Men who have had game penalties. The Dimitrov one was fairly spectacular. And of course,we had Nalbandian at Queens getting defaulted.

Brydan Klein juin 2017 Nottingham
Benoit Paire juin 2017 Halle
Jerzy Janowicz mai 2017 Mexico
Adrian Mannarino février 2017 Delray Beach
Grigor Dimitrov mai 2016 Istanbul
Ernests Gulbis avril 2013 Monte-Carlo
Laurent Favre (@LaurentFavre) September 9, 2018

-- Edited by flamingowings on Sunday 9th of September 2018 10:03:11 PM

Miriambee · Futures level

flamingowings wrote:
Men who have had game penalties. The Dimitrov one was fairly spectacular. And of course,we had Nalbandian at Queens getting defaulted.

Brydan Klein juin 2017 Nottingham
Benoit Paire juin 2017 Halle
Jerzy Janowicz mai 2017 Mexico
Adrian Mannarino février 2017 Delray Beach
Grigor Dimitrov mai 2016 Istanbul
Ernests Gulbis avril 2013 Monte-Carlo
Laurent Favre (@LaurentFavre) September 9, 2018

-- Edited by flamingowings on Sunday 9th of September 2018 10:03:11 PM

Shapovalov got defaulted at the Davis cup against Kyle Edmund, when the ball hit the umpire.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

This highlights one of the main misunderstandings from some of the newspapers - she was not given a game penalty for saying 'thief' etc. She was given a code violation which, because it was the third, meant that it had to be a game penalty. So when Serena and others say 'No man's ever been given a game penalty for saying that', the question is whether they were given a warning, not a game penalty (assuming they were on zero warnings up to then). And although there are cases of Rafa, for instance, not being warned for telling the umpire they'd never ref his match again, Serena did far more than that - you're a thief, a liar, you owe me an apology (i.e. saying the umpire is wrong/incompetent) and not just once but a LOT of times. Personally, I found it far more offensive than a player swearing to him/herself (which is nearly always given a code violation).
A player can also be disqualified directly - like Shapo, as Miriambee says - and Nalbandian and Henman. But you're not given a game penalty directly and there's nothing that says this sort of behaviour is worse, hence a game penalty offence.

If they want to look at sexism, I think the USTA should look at the disgrace of the women's doubles team not being allowed to give thank you speeches after getting their trophies because the match had been long and they needed to get off the court so the men could get started.

From the BBC site:

"American CoCo Vandeweghe and Australian Ashleigh Barty said they were hustled off court shortly before the men's final, unable to deliver a victory speech after receiving their trophy.

"We couldn't thank anyone. I think that was poor form," said American Vandeweghe. "Maybe they'll do us right in Australia since the U.S. couldn't do me right."

Barty added they were rushed off because "the men needed to start".

"To be honest, I don't think they [Djokovic and Del Potro] would have worried if they were 10 or 15 minutes delayed," the Australian said."

indiana · Tennis legend

I know what you mean about many's misunderstandings re the eventual game penalty.

But Sue Barker is just talking code violation warnings which she sees not given.

There is often of course an element of interpretation re each incident or err ongoing incident and I think CD that we are two who simply have a different take on that final code violation as set out in various posts. And it sort of comes down to cumulatively you have found it offensive and I have not. I guess Ramos did.

The Realist · Junior player

flamingowings wrote:
Fognini called a female umpire a w*ore last year. Novak has said suck my d*ck or something as well but these were said in Italian/Serbian rather than English.

That is a "fine" - Nick K got more for his gesture at Queens with the water bottle.
I remain completely disgusted by the whole thing. Osaka has been abused online by people saying that she stole the crown from Serena and to give it back. Also people think her win should be asterisked like it wasn't earnt.

-- Edited by flamingowings on Sunday 9th of September 2018 09:51:34 PM

It is absolutely disgusting that Osaka has been abused on line.

This is entirely due to Serena and her coach. Whether or not the umpire should have given her a soft warning, she and her coach broke the rules

He has admitted coaching her, knowing it is against the rules, and she then smashed her racquet and verbally abused the referee. Is there some special set of rules for Miss Williams that she doesn't have to abide by the tennis regulations on conduct?

When is Serena going to apologise to Osaka ? A real true meaningful apology for ruining her day

Undoubtedly there is some sexism in the sport; the way in which the Ladies' doubles winners were treated supports that... BUT when is Billie Jean King and Azarenka and all those others who talked about sexism in the sport actually going to give some support to Osaka ? She is the real victim here

When is the WTA going to stop talking about sexism and give some support to Osaka and berate Miss Williams for ruining her moment ?

WHO IS STANDING UP FOR OSAKA ?

christ · Futures level

When the sexism brouhaha has died down a little, there will doubtless be a racism fuss. Choose your -ism. Wherever the blame is finally deemed to settle, Ms Williams behaved disgracefully, and seemed to believe that the rules don't apply to her. (... "he did it too!" was never considered a defence when I was at school).

1) Treating women differently from men is not necessarily sexism, but anyway one episode does not provide enough data to establish what sort of "-ism" was involved here, if any.

2) I don't think that the way that the Ladies' doubles winners were treated was sexism, I think that it is because doubles is considered by the organisers as a second class citizen when compared to singles.