Week 35 & 36 - US Open New York, USA - Hard

seagull · Hall of fame

Week 35 & 36 - US Open New York, USA - Hard

TomTraubert · Futures level

phooey
ah so now its the great champion thats the diff
so nadal trying to get bernades deselected from his matches is cool and gaming the shot clock his whole career etc
so mcenroe makin a livin off it for years? everyones top pundit for years puffed up at all turns
or sport in genral
zidane headbutting that bloke - goes on to be real manager still a legend
roy keane deliberately ending that guys career - adored by all in football still a pundit all bow in respect to him
cantona a legend after assaulting a fan
maradona cheat drug addict etc still adored
countless nfl players idolised after assaults - mike vick and his dog fighting league
mayweather a complete a$$ - best boxer ever experts say and folks pay more for him than any else
tyson bites people still the name for a heavyweight a genration later
tiger after all his crap still biggest name in golf he has any good week and golf world is in raptures
etc * infinity

still great champs all by the actions of sport and sosiety to them

but 'rena, nope one night and you out girl
nice try making it seem like im just a 'rena stan smdh

she was way out of order course she was waaaayyyy out of order completely
still GOAT

TomTraubert · Futures level

and having osaka memries be of that rather than 1st slam win and beating her idol that is disgisting and 'rena needs make personal and general amends at some point

flamingowings · All-time great

Serena has done this before when she lost the US Open to Stosur and Clijsters.

I think the narrative- both from Serena and the media- that here is a woman who nearly died having a baby this time last year, who is the GOAT, who is trying to match and beat Court's record had already written the story that Serena was going to win. It's telling she mentioned her kid during the first exchange with Ramos.

Serena was well beaten by Osaka who seems like a lovely young woman and I felt so sorry for her that this happened and ruined a very special moment for her in her life.

seagull · Hall of fame

TomTraubert wrote:
phooey
ah so now its the great champion thats the diff
so nadal trying to get bernades deselected from his matches is cool and gaming the shot clock his whole career etc
so mcenroe makin a livin off it for years? everyones top pundit for years puffed up at all turns
or sport in genral
zidane headbutting that bloke - goes on to be real manager still a legend
roy keane deliberately ending that guys career - adored by all in football still a pundit all bow in respect to him
cantona a legend after assaulting a fan
maradona cheat drug addict etc still adored
countless nfl players idolised after assaults - mike vick and his dog fighting league
mayweather a complete a$$ - best boxer ever experts say and folks pay more for him than any else
tyson bites people still the name for a heavyweight a genration later
tiger after all his crap still biggest name in golf he has any good week and golf world is in raptures
etc * infinity

still great champs all by the actions of sport and sosiety to them

but 'rena, nope one night and you out girl
nice try making it seem like im just a 'rena stan smdh

she was way out of order course she was waaaayyyy out of order completely
still GOAT

Sorry I stopped reading after Phooey

God bless America

Helen40 · Grand Slam Champion

First of all, well done to Osaka, not only for playing great, but for handling herself so well and keeping calm and composed situation playing against her idol.

I was listening on R5L, Russell Fuller, Cashy and someone else were commentating. Cashy stuck up for Serena, in the Ramos is a pratt.

Serena was out of order, she's had a few instances that have been referenced above, especially at the USO. Saying that, Ramos has got a reputation for wanting the attention, and has certainly wound the top players up before now, including Fed, Rafa and Andy. I'm sure it was Fed that didn't want him to officiate in any more of his matches one Wimby. I still can't understand why he's still allowed to officiate at such a high level when his actions take away from the game and the players. We're discussing an amazing match (from Naomi's point of view) for all the wrong reasons.

On the point about sexism, I think that a top man would have been treated differently, so I understand why Vika and BJK are in Serena's corner, and why Serena got wound up. I think that she's a great ambassador for women and People of Colour in sport and in life. I know the majority won't be able to relate to her, but if you've been persecuted all your life for just being you, and can get a chip on your shoulder, and helping others is a great thing that she is doing. so good on her for that (albeit being OTT on this occaision). She did ask the crowd to stop booing at the end and let focus on Osaka's big moment. Why on earth didn't they have a female umpire for a female GS final in any case?

flamingowings · All-time great

One thing about umpires and players is when players swear in other languages, Fognini and Djokovic for example have said some very unpleasant things to umpires but wasn't picked up because it wasn't in English.

Ace Ventura · Tennis legend

Helen40 wrote:
First of all, well done to Osaka, not only for playing great, but for handling herself so well and keeping calm and composed situation playing against her idol.

I was listening on R5L, Russell Fuller, Cashy and someone else were commentating. Cashy stuck up for Serena, in the Ramos is a pratt.

Serena was out of order, she's had a few instances that have been referenced above, especially at the USO. Saying that, Ramos has got a reputation for wanting the attention, and has certainly wound the top players up before now, including Fed, Rafa and Andy. I'm sure it was Fed that didn't want him to officiate in any more of his matches one Wimby. I still can't understand why he's still allowed to officiate at such a high level when his actions take away from the game and the players. We're discussing an amazing match (from Naomi's point of view) for all the wrong reasons.

On the point about sexism, I think that a top man would have been treated differently, so I understand why Vika and BJK are in Serena's corner, and why Serena got wound up. I think that she's a great ambassador for women and People of Colour in sport and in life. I know the majority won't be able to relate to her, but if you've been persecuted all your life for just being you, and can get a chip on your shoulder, and helping others is a great thing that she is doing. so good on her for that (albeit being OTT on this occaision). She did ask the crowd to stop booing at the end and let focus on Osaka's big moment. Why on earth didn't they have a female umpire for a female GS final in any case?
There's a female umpire doing the men's match tonight, from England, but she's got history with female umpires at the UO anyway - that point against Stosur in the '11 final where she shouted 'come on' before the winner and hot the point reversed then kicked off in trademark fashion.

Samson · Lower Club Player

I would have loved to have seen Serena win her 24th yesterday but Osaka was playing nerveless tennis. Serena was playing better as the match went on but apart from one wobble where she lost serve, Naomi had all the answers. I do think Naomi was going to win, regardless.

Serena, being a true champion, is arrogant in that she doesnt feel as though rules should be applied to her and she gets angsty when things dont go her way. All top players are guilty of this, they play to win. Winning is so important to them, they get upset when they start to lose.

Umpires who dont enforce the rules and let players do what they want do a disservice to umpires like Ramos, who comes across as a strict egotistical authoritarian just for enforcing the written rules of the game! Whomever needs to do it, review the standards of umpiring across the board or have it written into the rule book that you have to have a quiet verbal warning with the player for any infraction before any other sanctions. (So a quiet word about Patricks attempts to coach in this circumstance.)

I just feel that any point in a GS final is so important, that to take away points and games is more unfair than if it happens in an earlier round.

I loved how Serena talked to, supported and comforted Naomi after the match. It really showed how much she empathised and cared for another person, even after having to deal with feeling very wronged by the whole situation.

I am very interested to see what happens with Patrick now, his behaviour was the catalyst for all of this. He was also very quick to say I was coaching, everyone does it. Whilst Serena maintained he wasnt and that they dont do that as a partnership. I think tennis officials either need to change the rules (if all coaches do it, the rule cannot be enforced so why have it?) or disallow coaches from watching court side.

May Serena and Naomi win more GS.

Michael D · All-time great

Helen40 wrote:
First of all, well done to Osaka, not only for playing great, but for handling herself so well and keeping calm and composed situation playing against her idol.

I was listening on R5L, Russell Fuller, Cashy and someone else were commentating. Cashy stuck up for Serena, in the Ramos is a pratt.

Serena was out of order, she's had a few instances that have been referenced above, especially at the USO. Saying that, Ramos has got a reputation for wanting the attention, and has certainly wound the top players up before now, including Fed, Rafa and Andy. I'm sure it was Fed that didn't want him to officiate in any more of his matches one Wimby. I still can't understand why he's still allowed to officiate at such a high level when his actions take away from the game and the players. We're discussing an amazing match (from Naomi's point of view) for all the wrong reasons.

On the point about sexism, I think that a top man would have been treated differently, so I understand why Vika and BJK are in Serena's corner, and why Serena got wound up. I think that she's a great ambassador for women and People of Colour in sport and in life. I know the majority won't be able to relate to her, but if you've been persecuted all your life for just being you, and can get a chip on your shoulder, and helping others is a great thing that she is doing. so good on her for that (albeit being OTT on this occaision). She did ask the crowd to stop booing at the end and let focus on Osaka's big moment. Why on earth didn't they have a female umpire for a female GS final in any case?

I really agree with your last point here Helen. This is for me perhaps the most sexist element of what transpired, and that was the doing of the tournament organisers. Ramos should not have given her the coaching violation, he could just have spoken to her at changeover, and then the rest might never have happened. Whatever hand signals Mouratoglou was making weren't going to make the slightest bit of difference, even if Serena had seen them, and Ramos would know that... Or if Serena did start to rail because she was losing, then it would have been totally on her own head. She was clearly fired up by the sense of injustice, and that Ramos was responsible unnecessarily for provoking. After that Serena was OTT.

I hope Naomi has really good support around her, since (in contrast) behaving so maturely and performing so well, she deserves huge credit. I had a sneaking suspicion the occasion would be too much for Serena and Naomi might nick it, but obviously not quite in this manner. It was an awesome performance by Naomi, but very sad her idol had to produce her feet of clay on this day and stage. Serena does have further apologies to make, and it is in her character that she will subsequently make them. Once she cools down, she will respect Osaka's performance. As for Naomi she will win further grand slams, she is a star in the making.

flamingowings · All-time great

You cannot be serious advocating that only men should officiate men's matches and vice versa!
Ramos was following the rules. Serena has kicked off at the same tournament in finals to FEMALE umpires before.

Michael D · All-time great

flamingowings wrote:
You cannot be serious advocating that only men should officiate men's matches and vice versa!
Ramos was following the rules. Serena has kicked off at the same tournament in finals to FEMALE umpires before.

No, I agree you are right on that, and neither of us were advocating this. Obviously when you have many matches going on, you have to have officials from both genders and that's common sense. Just this was the final that's all, it would have been good to have a woman umpiring it, notwithstanding Serena's previous. We've already had the over zealous male umpire behaviour this tournament with Cornet. It would have been good to have had less provocative umpiring in the final, especially if Serena was not even looking at her coach. Coaching happens to be a two way interaction, so making hand gestures in the crowd is by itself not coaching, unless it's happening frequently, which as far as I can gather it was not.

Ace Ventura · Tennis legend

Why does it matter anyway whether it is a man or a women umpiring? Just had a quick check and of the past 7 women's slam finals, 4 have been men, including Serena vs Kerber a couple of months ago. Just like Cicak has done men's finals and Alison Hughes is in the chair tonight for the men. Tennis is one of the few sports where it's pretty much accepted as a mixed sport and shouldn't be an issue who does the umpiring and should be selected on who they see as the best option regardless of gender.

flamingowings · All-time great

I totally fail to see "why it would have been good" to see a female umpiring the match although ace puts it much better than I could.

indiana · Tennis legend

I certainly agree that if rules are there they should be followed as consistently as possible. So they have a no coaching rule but Ramos is no fool so he will no doubt know that it goes on quite a lot often unnoticed and also aware of the soft warnings that are given. So I still have a bit of a problem with his apparent zero tolerance in this case. It wasn't then at a vital time, though clearly a big match, nor of course at that stage a point penalty but it smacked a bit of the grandstanding some umpires suddenly have with time violation warnings at quite important times when some players are in fact over the limit much of the time.

After that Serena pretty much brought the subsequent actions on herself. The racket breaking point penalty noone seems to dispute and she was OTT in her behavior with most folk here certainly seeming to think she deserved the cumulative game penalty for verbal abuse. I remain doubtful about that one but if she could have shut up it would never have come to that.

Back though to the coaching issue, whilst agreeing rules if there should be enforced as consistently as possible, the coaching one is difficult, and Samson goes in an interesting direction re if it the rule can't be enforced consistently why have it. And I do actually wonder if if is necessary to have it. Coach waving his hands or whatever signal, is it such an issue apart from some principle. As long as it is not game delaying or distracting to other people ( I suspect so non distracting much of the time that it is missed by most people including the umpire ) then surely we could live with it. I don't like on court coaching but non game delaying non verbal coaching from the box or wherever the coach is in other tournaments, is it such a big deal?