Week 35 & 36 - US Open New York, USA - Hard

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Week 35 & 36 - US Open New York, USA - Hard

AliBlahBlah · All-time great

Coup Droit wrote:
So an American player won the title last year (Sloane), with another American in the final (Madison).

And this year we've got two Americans in the semis and one player who has lived in the US since the age of 3, done all her tennis there, and has American nationality (along with Japanese).

Everyone thinks of Serena, but the US women overall really have quite a stranglehold on this competition at the moment.

American, American, Americans, has American nationality (along with Japanese)

You have placed Osaka's stated nationality subsidary, literally in parentheses, to her American nationallity.

The entire paragraph, or three lines, is about Americans and concludes with the part in bold about the players all being the US women, and the dominance of the US women. If you're not including Osaka as amongst the US women, and essentially, America, as you actually did state, then why include her at all?

That seems at the very very least a bit as though you did suggest that rather. You don't credit America, you credit the American women, and by including Osaka, you imply that she is one too, and you directly state it, too, downplaying her Japanese actual nationality in preference if the American.

The point about American women is well made and does not need to include Osaka - they're doing quite well enough with their actual American players. Japan can similarly happily celebrate their joint successes this week without it being diminshed. You might just as well call Osaka German, as Sascha Baijin is the one that has arguably made the actual real difference in Osaka's abuility to win on the biggest stages.

Anyway, I'll end with this: Sascha Baijin's coach when he was a player was Santa Clouse - I kid you not.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

I am highlighting the American part of her life; I am not saying that it is most important part of her life. I am highlighting how the US tennis system for women is currently very successful. This includes many women who are other nationalities, not just Naomi. I put the Japanese in parentheses because I was making a point about the learning environment of the players' tennis, not their nationality, namely three out of four being in the US.

Indeed, Naomi's choice, as of her interview 2 days ago, was obviously a mixed one and seemingly finance played a large part. But any person who proudly feels connections with several countries has to make a choice, and there are many factors.

"Osaka, who lived in her native Japan until she was 3, started playing tennis in New York after her father saw the Williams sisters playing at the French Open in 1999 and decided to teach his daughters. She is now based in Florida, trains with Bajin at Everts academy in Boca Raton, and made the decision to play for Japan largely because of financial reasons the Japanese federation offered more support money than the U.S. Tennis Association.

Osaka proudly represents Japan on the court, but that financial decision was separate from her multicultural identity. She comes from three cultures, has dual citizenship with Japan and the United States and calls America home."

AliBlahBlah · All-time great

You didn't talk about women developed through the American system, you talked about the US Women, about explicitly, three Americans because they were of American nationality, not because they were products of the American tennis system.
And, of course, Serena was definitely NOT raised in the American tennis system. She and her sister existed entirely outside of it studiously andvery deliberately so; didn't even play juniors, and only engage with the USTA or US Tennis out of necessity (e.g. the Olympics). They are NOT a product of the American tennis system.
Including Serena as the comparator only makes sense if the comparison was to Nationallity, and thus a match to Keys & Stephens. But not Osaka. It makes no sense for the Tennis system argument. Serena as subject simply can't fit both scenarios.

Andy is more Spanish/American than British in terms of his tennis development; Laura, Australian/American; Heather, American - we would never call them by any of those nationalities... would we?
Any player, or, more generally anything, that passes through America's sphere of influence is defered to America's credit, and they of course will, and do, claim all credit for the 'real' success, that she's 'really' American, and that's the only reason she's made it, or that anyone or anything makes it is due to the American influence alone. The failures of course, well, they're ignored, or didn't work hard enough or whatever other macguffin is required to maintain the asymmetrical obeisance.

Again though, Santa Clouse! how is this not the first thing on his bio?

Edit: The cross-examination rests.

-- Edited by AliBlahBlah on Thursday 6th of September 2018 06:23:59 PM

flamingowings · All-time great

AliBlahBlah wrote:
Again though, Santa Clouse! how is this not the first thing on his bio?

Edit: The cross-examination rests.

-- Edited by AliBlahBlah on Thursday 6th of September 2018 06:23:59 PM

Have you seen what the first line is on Chris Evert's wiki page? This article is about the tennis player. For the horse, see Chris Evert (horse) (seems to have been a pretty successful horse in her time!) biggrin

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

"You didn't talk about women developed through the American system, you talked about the US Women, about explicitly, three Americans because they were of American nationality, not because they were products of the American tennis system."

Sorry, AliB, but that't not true.
I said "And this year we've got two Americans in the semis and one player who has lived in the US since the age of 3, done all her tennis there, and has American nationality (along with Japanese)."
I made a clear distinction between the first two (US tennis players) and Osaka, who is not but is living and playing her tennis in the US. And who also, but lastly, also is an American national. Which she is.

Michael D · All-time great

flamingowings wrote:
AliBlahBlah wrote:
Again though, Santa Clouse! how is this not the first thing on his bio?

Edit: The cross-examination rests.

-- Edited by AliBlahBlah on Thursday 6th of September 2018 06:23:59 PM
Have you seen what the first line is on Chris Evert's wiki page? This article is about the tennis player. For the horse, see Chris Evert (horse) (seems to have been a pretty successful horse in her time!)

And I love the fact that her parents were Swoons Son and Miss Carmie. Swoon's Son must have been quite a lad with the gals wink

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

As a separate issue, is it unusual that we have three players (out of four) who barely played any junior tennis or indeed zero junior tennis?

indiana · Tennis legend

Coup Droit wrote:
So an American player won the title last year (Sloane), with another American in the final (Madison).

And this year we've got two Americans in the semis and one player who has lived in the US since the age of 3, done all her tennis there, and has American nationality (along with Japanese).

Everyone thinks of Serena, but the US women overall really have quite a stranglehold on this competition at the moment.

Indeed certainly very worthy of note ( and that whole post still stands up fine IMO ) and indeed you could have added that last year Venus Williams and CoCo Vandeweghe were the losing semi finalists. So all four semi finalists were American.

And I had been thinking myself at the QF stage that it could possibly be close to that again with Americans in 3 quarter finals and the 4th having Naomi who had been essentially raised and tennis developed in the US. As it was Sloane lost out to Sevastova but still quite a couple of years with the end games for this year still to play out.

Michael D · All-time great

Both Serena and Naomi were devastating in their SFs. It will be an extremely intriguing match up in the final, and really a case of new gen vs old gen. It seems a long while ago now that Jo actually beat Naomi in the Fed Cup in April. Naomi has had an up and down year, but her overall trajectory is decidedly upwards. She has clearly bags of talent, and is developing maturity and battle readiness to go with it. Finally, any competitors that have survived two weeks of the sauna that has been the US Open this year, deserves their place in the final. They have had to be well prepared and mentally and physically very tough. Serena will be the favourite of course, but I don't believe Naomi will be overawed by the occasion and expect a competitive match.

JonH · All-time great

I see Angelique Kerber and Simona Halep are both down as qualified for Singapore now, according to live rankings.

christ · Futures level

AliBlahBlah wrote:
Osaka herself says she's Japanese, and more Haitian (her fathers nationallity) than American.
By this token, Hev & Laura, being based in Florida most their lives, are also American, which they're not; Andy was Spanish etc.
I don't think it behoves us well to start suggetsing otherwise than the correct nationality on this issue, for any players, for any associated nationalities of residence.

But she is American. She has American citizenship (amongst others). Neither Hev nor Laura have American citizenship, and Andy certainly doesn't have Spanish nationality.

She chooses to play for Japan, and no-one here - least of all CD - is arguing that point, but she is indubitably American (as well).

... As Mr Bedene proved quite conclusively your nationality and/or citizenship is only vaguely related to the country under whose flag you play tennis.

indiana · Tennis legend

christ wrote:
AliBlahBlah wrote:
Osaka herself says she's Japanese, and more Haitian (her fathers nationallity) than American.
By this token, Hev & Laura, being based in Florida most their lives, are also American, which they're not; Andy was Spanish etc.
I don't think it behoves us well to start suggetsing otherwise than the correct nationality on this issue, for any players, for any associated nationalities of residence.
But she is American. She has American citizenship (amongst others). Neither Hev nor Laura have American citizenship, and Andy certainly doesn't have Spanish nationality.
She chooses to play for Japan, and no-one here - least of all CD - is arguing that point, but she is indubitably American (as well).
... As Mr Bedene proved quite conclusively your nationality and/or citizenship is only vaguely related to the country under whose flag you play tennis.

Indeed. Yet CD still separated out Naomi and put her position in context ( "two Americans .... and one player ...."). Arguably he could if he had wanted made more of in her case her length of time in the US and suggested she was mainly American. But he respectively and rightly did no such thing, probably not knowing Naomi or her family's ultimate true feelings and these can often be quite complex in how you regard yourself. Indeed I note that ABB says Naomi regards herself as Japanese, and more Haitian than American, but the point here is that noone is arguing against that.

The ABB talk about Naomi along with any other player that "passes through America's sphere of influence ..." seems a tad disingenuous given her particular history, and maybe more about general thoughts and disquiet in general about some players' American connections / supposed connections being played up arguably too much rather than the particular US Open semi finalists and Naomi original comments.

When posting regarding the general American success in reaching the SFs these last two years actually not to mention Naomi's position would have seemed strange to me and indeed I had almost posted similarly before CD originally did.

-- Edited by indiana on Friday 7th of September 2018 03:42:32 PM

indiana · Tennis legend

Yay, Naomi Osaka wins the title 6-2 6-4 !

I just saw the last game but have evidently missed huge drama and controversy involving Serena and whatever it has been it seems theat the crowd were much on her side at the end ( though not against Naomi ) ??

A fill in, please.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Well, that's a match that is going to be talked about for a while !
But firstly, what a super, aggressive yet cool as a cucumber match from Osaka. AND she should get special brownie points for not squealing or shrieking when she hits the ball