Week 35 & 36 - US Open New York, USA - Hard

AliBlahBlah · All-time great

RE: Week 35 & 36 - US Open New York, USA - Hard

Michael D · All-time great

AliBlahBlah wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
Why would she take this down? Because of the last bit? i.e. not backing Serena? or because it didn't go far enough? Or is this too simplistic and I've missed something ?
Did you read the comments? If you're not used to that, I'd be terrified, too.

When I read the piece, fairly soon after you posted it, there weren't any comments. I assume from your post here that the article then attracted some very hostile comments. Again, I'm not sure why it should, since Naomi's post was carefully considered, as you and all others here have said. If people are trolling an article like that, than that's very sad, since I still fail really to understand who would and why. Sadly though online negative comments nearly always outweigh the positive even when a piece is as carefully balance as Naomi's was.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

AliBlahBlah wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
AliBlahBlah wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
Why would she take this down? Because of the last bit? i.e. not backing Serena? or because it didn't go far enough? Or is this too simplistic and I've missed something ?
Did you read the comments? If you're not used to that, I'd be terrified, too.
No, I hadn't read any of the direct comments for that article. Again, just to be clear, you mean pro-Serena comments? I've read others though and, yes, some tweeters etc. are truly deranged and scary.
No, I don't mean pro-Serena comments. The extended article wasn't really about Serena, prettey much the entirety of the part that deals with Serena is in the excerpt I supplied in the spoiler above. Even Serena diehards aren't going to take violent exception to that.
Look up Gamergate.

I'm sorry, AliB, I'm just being dense - I read the article well, both the Serena part and the more general part, and actually sent it to someone (for work reasons) - pretty sure they'll have made a copy too - I'll let them know she's taken it down - so are you're saying that it's sexism deniers that put up the nasty comments?

AliBlahBlah · All-time great

Michael D wrote:
AliBlahBlah wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
Why would she take this down? Because of the last bit? i.e. not backing Serena? or because it didn't go far enough? Or is this too simplistic and I've missed something ?
Did you read the comments? If you're not used to that, I'd be terrified, too.
When I read the piece, fairly soon after you posted it, there weren't any comments. I assume from your post here that the article then attracted some very hostile comments. Again, I'm not sure why it should, since Naomi's post was carefully considered, as you and all others here have said. If people are trolling an article like that, than that's very sad, since I still fail really to understand who would and why. Sadly though online negative comments nearly always outweigh the positive even when a piece is as carefully balance as Naomi's was.

In being balanced, you allow the case for the other side to be heard; that issues are often complicated and nuanced.
There are large groups that are vehemently opposed to hearing another side to anything regarding sexism, or racism, or most any other 'ism', even if the conclusion of that debate in this instance was largely to suggest that this was not a time when those things existed in the larger part. To them these things don't exist, have never existed. Society found it's correct and natural expression based on the merits of it's constituents, at all levels. That one group or groups dominate at the expense of others is just a function of those groups being naturally and indisputably superior in all cases. The whining minorities deserved everything they got because they don't work hard enough or are less intelligent, or simply bad at things and get outcompeted. Anything that suggests to the contrary is just a hoax & conspiracy concocted by the losers to try and steal undeserved resource and capital from the dominant groups in order to deny them their rightful place in control of everything.
This incident, and by extension, Naomi's piece, covers that dangerous territory. If you think that is all trivial, then enjoy your bubble. See Gamergate - it will sap your soul though.

AliBlahBlah · All-time great

Coup Droit wrote:
[...]
Look up Gamergate.
I'm sorry, AliB, I'm just being dense - I read the article well, both the Serena part and the more general part, and actually sent it to someone (for work reasons) - pretty sure they'll have made a copy too - I'll let them know she's taken it down - so are you're saying that it's sexism deniers that put up the nasty comments?

cf. above
Of course, I don't know why the piece was removed, I'm guessing. But if you were unprepared to enter that maelstrom, and then saw the potential consequences, I would remove it too.

AliBlahBlah · All-time great

But, trying to leave the US Open in the way it should be remembered, here, hopefully, is the future of tennis:

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Maybe not quite as serious as feared

Naomi's article is now back up again and linked via her twitter feed.

JonH · All-time great

Cant help but resurrect this!

www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/sep/24/serena-williams-says-she-doesnt-understand-coachs-claim-he-coached-her-at-us-open-final

Doesnt this make it difficult for Montaglou to really carry on as Serena Williams coach? Surely she is completely undermining him here?

hoots · Intermediate Club Player

And STILL we're not allowed to comment on anything or anybody to do with Tennis on the Beeb Have Your Say forum over 2 weeks since the incident in question!!

Michael D · All-time great

JonH wrote:
Cant help but resurrect this!

www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/sep/24/serena-williams-says-she-doesnt-understand-coachs-claim-he-coached-her-at-us-open-final

Doesnt this make it difficult for Montaglou to really carry on as Serena Williams coach? Surely she is completely undermining him here?

Yes, I saw this too. Serena is getting far too cute now. Mouratoglou admitted to the hand signals because he was shown on the live recording of the match making them very obviously. So if Serena doesn't understand what he was doing it/ why he's admitting it, she just needs to watch the replay to understand. AND DON'T TELL ME SHE HASN"T WATCHED THE REPLAY UNTIL NOW. If Serena carries on in denial/ proclaiming the innocent about this incident for much longer, her respect/ stock and patience for her position is going to decline quite sharply. If I was her, it's time to wise up and be a little bit more honest at this stage.

indiana · Tennis legend

"Made a motion" lol. Some pretty specific motions and an admission. Serena, this is a nonsense !!

Whether or not they had any prearranged signals and even if she didn't want or expect it, or if Mouratoglou coaches her at other times ( but he did say, when admitting it, that it was common in tennis and as far as I know he didn't suggest this was a one-off from him ), the fact remains he was caught COACHING her !!

Whether it deserved the full or a soft warning is irrelevant to this absurd ongoing denial.

AliBlahBlah · All-time great

Serena and Venus never accept the coaching breaks, even in the events when they are permitted, he might have been coaching, but doesn't mean that she was being coached.
Fault is Patrick's, and he of course gets off entirely scot-free. Serena wasn't expecting or requiring of coaching, given her zero precedence for it, and her outright rejection, disdainful spurning of the facility even where legal.
The player pays the penalty for the coaches infractions though. But it's entirely consistent for her to be confused by Patrick saying he'd decided to start cheating, as she always stops him from coming on to court, because she has never needed his or anyone elses help on how to win matches; she's solved those problems herelf, neve been one like the Henin-Rodriguez relationship, where every point was coded signals.

christ · Futures level

AliBlahBlah wrote:
Fault is Patrick's, and he of course gets off entirely scot-free.

He is her employee. She is, therefore, responsible for his actions. "I'm sorry, I'll fire him" is the appropriate response, not the nonsense that she came out with.

AliBlahBlah · All-time great

christ wrote:
AliBlahBlah wrote:
Fault is Patrick's, and he of course gets off entirely scot-free.
He is her employee. She is, therefore, responsible for his actions. "I'm sorry, I'll fire him" is the appropriate response, not the nonsense that she came out with.

Funny how this works though. Alex Ferguson routinely refused point blank to reprimand his players in public, even after they assaulted fans, or deliberately went on the pitch with the intent of ending an opponents career - and carried out that intent. He was praised for keeping the employee releations side of affairs behind closed doors and never showing any disharmony in public even in face of reprehensible actions - far worse than Patrick's here. They were the clubs employees, he was their direct manager. No apology ever, for anything, nno summary dismissals - and his refusal to do so made him be seen as strong leader, a great manager, fawned over by all, for evermore.
Similar parallels come to mind with Bellichek at the Patriots, or Tiger Woods and Steve Williams - the reputations only enhanced by not apologising, standing their ground - seen as decisive, uncowed, strong men taht knew their own minds.

But, for Serena, she needs to come out and fire her employee and apologise profusely for his actions and is speaking nonsense when she stands her ground. Interesting.

indiana · Tennis legend

Serena is speaking nonsense in denying coaching took place.

It did and as things stand the umpire judges the coaching, he can't be expected to judge or allow for whether the player wants it or not. The player gets any penalty as is routinely known.

Ramos could have made it clearer in exchanges when she was going on about she doesn't cheat that he wasn't judging her but the coaching he saw.

But as for now, initial confusion accepted for the reasons ABB gives, but the ongoing non acceptance of what happened out there as if Ramos made it up remains absurd whatever tangents we go off on.