Week 35 & 36 - US Open New York, USA - Hard

The Realist · Junior player

RE: Week 35 & 36 - US Open New York, USA - Hard

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

christT, I agree - there are a huge number of -isms at work here.

Indeed, re Serena, the racism argument is already being argued loud and clear in the US. See ESPN's site that had this article attached:

theundefeated.com/features/serena-williams-and-that-funky-white-privilege-math/

Re the women's doubles, of course it could be doubles v singles too/instead but the women thought it was (too some extent at least) a gender thing. That's the whole problem with the -isms, as you say, there's not enough data just on one or two examples. After all:

Are men allowed to get away with what Serena did and women are unfairly picked on because we expect them to be more genteel?
Or maybe it's race because, according to the article above, we are scared?
Or maybe it's only Americans who get 'unfairly' picked on because they are (supposedly) more outspoken?
Or maybe Sue Barker is right and there are plenty of examples of men getting away with it but there are also just as many cases of women also getting away with what Serena did and it's nothing to do with men and women, just the arbitrariness of the rule, the interpretation of the umpire or whatever.
Or maybe there are no examples of any player acting quite as Serena did and she just had the rules applied, somewhat to the letter?

It would be good if someone in authority analysed all the data of similar examples.

-- Edited by Coup Droit on Monday 10th of September 2018 10:29:03 AM

JonH · All-time great

Ive followed this from afar as I didnt want to say the wrong thing. I used to spend time on the ESPN Tennis Forum way back in the day. One of the things I noticed there and many other places was that the moment someone criticised the Williams sisters, the baying hordes would be on that person immediately. They seem to create a real passion that is sometimes scary. This seemed to happen a bit on Saturday - the crowd bayed and went with her and Osaka was remarkable to manage herself through all of that.

In my mind, Ramos wasn't sexist, he applied the rules. If someone, man or woman , calls an umpire a liar and a thief that is most definitely abuse. Its a terrible thing to say. Serena was coached - whether she saw it or not, her coach admitted it; she smashed her racquet, no disputing that. And then abused the umpire. A man would have got the same penalty I have no doubts.

The card that got me though wasnt sexism or racism, it was the mother and baby card. What relevance did that have at all to anything? Just because she is a mum, she has no rights to bad behaviour. Andy is a Dad, Djoko ditto, Azarenka is a Mum.

the "I am a mother card, I have a daughter" was in poor taste and disingenuous I felt.

scottie1 · Futures level

JonH wrote:
Ive followed this from afar as I didnt want to say the wrong thing. I used to spend time on the ESPN Tennis Forum way back in the day. One of the things I noticed there and many other places was that the moment someone criticised the Williams sisters, the baying hordes would be on that person immediately. They seem to create a real passion that is sometimes scary. This seemed to happen a bit on Saturday - the crowd bayed and went with her and Osaka was remarkable to manage herself through all of that.

In my mind, Ramos wasn't sexist, he applied the rules. If someone, man or woman , calls an umpire a liar and a thief that is most definitely abuse. Its a terrible thing to say. Serena was coached - whether she saw it or not, her coach admitted it; she smashed her racquet, no disputing that. And then abused the umpire. A man would have got the same penalty I have no doubts.

The card that got me though wasnt sexism or racism, it was the mother and baby card. What relevance did that have at all to anything? Just because she is a mum, she has no rights to bad behaviour. Andy is a Dad, Djoko ditto, Azarenka is a Mum.

the "I am a mother card, I have a daughter" was in poor taste and disingenuous I felt.

it is the fawning by organisations like the BBC that increases Williams ego. I hope this the start of her downfall Osaka is the future she is the past.

the addict · Tennis legend

The WTA and the USO official feeds have been fawning over Serena for weeks on their social media. It's no surprise that they haven't condemned her ...... yet.

Personally I thought she was way out of order, and a game penalty as the culmination of the code violations wasn't enough. The pictures of her pointing and shouting at Ramos sum it all up. I hope she gets a suspension on top of the paltry fine, and misses the AO if not more. They have the power - it's in the slam rulebook.

christ · Futures level

What has life come to when the winner has to apologise?

indiana · Tennis legend

Worth remembering in it all that the game penalty was Osaka's service game and took her from *4-3 to 5-3*. So Serena was already in deep trouble scorewise and while it importantly took away one of only two remaining break chances to keep Serena in it, it was hardly a turning point. She ( and Naomi ! ) had already got her into a pickle in the match and Naomi was winning!

Then Naomi seemed a bit disengaged in the next game though I recall Serena served quite well ( not sure she basically threw that game as I have seen suggested ) and then splendidly served it out and deserves so much credit.

JonH · All-time great

Not sure if anyone else having problems - when I click on the quote button above, it wont actually allow me to provide a message, the "white box" area for typing is missing (it is grey in fact and cant be edited). I can however use this quick reply facility ....

Anyway, what I was going to say. Tennis seems to create a cult of personality and associated fans where people become unable to see the fault in their hero or heroine. Fed and Nadal and Djoko fans seem often only able to comment on their player whilst knocking the others. People find it hard to accept you can be a fan (or admire) all 3 of them and that is absolutely fine. Fan has become fanatic. In the womens game, that seems generally less until it comes to Serena - she is clearly in that love or hate bracket for many; problem is when that love or hate thing is compounded by male or female, white or black, mother or not, etc. Serena had a responsibility on Saturday to control herself better than she did. That she failed and that the fans failed to see what she was doing for what it was, is sad. A sense of entitlement is unappealing in anyone demonstrates it.

indiana · Tennis legend

JonH wrote:
Not sure if anyone else having problems - when I click on the quote button above, it wont actually allow me to provide a message, the "white box" area for typing is missing (it is grey in fact and cant be edited). I can however use this quick reply facility ....

Anyway, what I was going to say. Tennis seems to create a cult of personality and associated fans where people become unable to see the fault in their hero or heroine. Fed and Nadal and Djoko fans seem often only able to comment on their player whilst knocking the others. People find it hard to accept you can be a fan (or admire) all 3 of them and that is absolutely fine. Fan has become fanatic. In the womens game, that seems generally less until it comes to Serena - she is clearly in that love or hate bracket for many; problem is when that love or hate thing is compounded by male or female, white or black, mother or not, etc. Serena had a responsibility on Saturday to control herself better than she did. That she failed and that the fans failed to see what she was doing for what it was, is sad. A sense of entitlement is unappealing in anyone demonstrates it.

Quote's working fine for me - so there doesn't look to be a general issue.

Myself - I'm certainly neither a Serena lover or hater, just take a view on her final code violation, and I do agree that her behavior was poor and she at least gave Ramos a decision to make.

Oakland2002 · All-time great

The irony is Naomi has plenty of experience of being on the wrong end of isms.

As has been documented on the forum before the Japanese in terms of adapting to cultural variation sit to the right of the daily mail and are a bit conflicted about having a mixed race superstar. I really feel for her, Naomi is pretty unique and its not like there is a large mixed race community to support her. Definitely an achievement Serena should have magnanimously celebrated and really stepped back from if she was genuinely fighting any other cause than her own.

Should Serena be censored further for this outburst?

The best punishment would be for Naomi to push on from strength to strength.

Serena was and still is a great player however she was so incredibly selfish last night . Relentless progress by Osaka would expose that, ie her behaviour reflected a frustration at her inability to compete and a failure to bully the official in a way in which men have allegedly been successful in the past. Although not this umpire who is consistent in his officiousness and also upset men on the ATP tour. The argument that men are better bullies than women is all wrong, it definitely is not the fault of the victim. Referees are quiting football in their droves, like it lump it the ref/umpire should have the final say.

As for Naomi I cant think of any player winning a slam for the first time being celebrated in such an underwhelming way.

Well played Naomi Osaka

hopefully the first of many!

flamingowings · All-time great

The ITF have (finally) made a statement: twitter.com/ITF_Tennis/status/1039192554821038081

This is after fawning ones by the USO and WTA in Serena's favour.

And, as our own Tara Moore points out, having coaching at all is specialist and elitist as not all players, have coaches. Or sometimes even top players share coaches (Am sure Monfils/Simon did for a while - quite recently at that)

https://twitter.com/TaraMoore92/status/1039063003071762432

-- Edited by flamingowings on Monday 10th of September 2018 05:47:45 PM

indiana · Tennis legend

Oakland does make a very reasonable point ( and see the video re Djokovic on the attached comments to that twitter link ) that if consistency among umpires is debatable Ramos seems pretty consistent himself.

There is a case for "know your umpire" and Ramos is not exactly a new guy in the scene! So if the final code violation may be debated by some it seems not really inconsistent by Ramos's standards.

Maybe the umpires need a get together ( actually I assume they already do at times ) and look at consistency and if they more move the Ramos way I have no problem with that.

Grachka · County player

The WTA's take is ultra-frustrating. To not only back up the fallacy that women are not being treated equally by umpires is one thing, but to directly link it to the USO final - which was umpired by a man known for being equally rigorous with men - is bananas.

The wilful misreporting of what happened is very annoying. Yes, you can argue over severity of the coaching code violation - but it was a legitimate ruling, and the other two moreso. It has few comparisons in the game as a whole (not just the men's tour) because repeated code violations to the point of a game forfeit are so rare.

For the WTA to throw a very respected umpire under the bus to help a star save face after a pretty reprehensible meltdown is baffling.

P.S. Top work from Osaka and I hope she wins in front of her home fans in Tokyo next week.

flamingowings · All-time great

indiana wrote:
Oakland does make a very reasonable point ( and see the video re Djokovic on the attached comments to that twitter link ) that if consistency among umpires is debatable Ramos seems pretty consistent himself.

There is a case for "know your umpire" and Ramos is not exactly a new guy in the scene! So if the final code violation may be debated by some it seems not really inconsistent by Ramos's standards.

Maybe the umpires need a get together ( actually I assume they already do at times ) and look at consistency and if they more move the Ramos way I have no problem with that.

David Law and some others have commented that there isn't an umpire organisation. Ramos was under the employ of the USO - and earned $450 a day/per match

https://twitter.com/DavidLawTennis/status/1039137323026456576

https://twitter.com/danroan/status/1039157655166693377

JonH · All-time great

450 dollars or what 375 pounds a day isn't much to be honest, not for a high profile role like that. Not sure that money is worth the flack and the pleasure of Serena destroying his career.

Someone said he should be consulting lawyers. It's a bit like elan musk and his comments Re that diver Chap in Thailand. Folks like him and Serena have a responsibility to realise people do their best and should be respected accordingly.