Week 32 - ATP Masters 1000 - Rogers Cup, Toronto, Canada (hard)

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

Week 32 - ATP Masters 1000 - Rogers Cup, Toronto, Canada (hard)

SuperT · Futures level

Vandenburg wrote:
Jaggy1876 wrote:
Still standing by my prediction that Cam will be ahead of Kyle after Aus Open rankings next year.
Strong call, which I have to agree with.
Many people on this forum vastly over rate Edmund, as they do with most things. Take away his fluke points he made from making the AO semi, and he is about 50 in the ATP race. This is a true reflection of his ranking. He has never been top 20 quality.
Norrie has a more rounded game, and could have a steady top 30 career, but doubt he can be top 20.

Interesting, but I don't understand why so many people on this forum underestimate Kyle? He has made steady and consistent progress over the past 5 or 6 years with no huge peaks or troughs - just a steady upwards curve. He's clearly a consummate professional looking to improve all areas of his game so I see no reason why he shouldn't continue to progress over the next couple of years, slowly and unspectacularly as he always does. He may never crack the top 10, but he obviously does have top 20 quality as the rankings don't lie.

Of course this is just my opinion!!

flamingowings · All-time great

Bob in Spain wrote:
On the subject of "lucky" points, Alex Zverev won 500 points in Washington last week. He beat

R1 : Bye
R2 : Malek Jaziri WR 64
R3 : Mischa Zverev WR 42
QF : Kei Nishikori WR 20
SF : Stefano Tsitsipas WR 32
Fin : De Minaur WR 72

So only one player in the Top 30 - a half fit (recovering from injury) Nishikori. Perhaps we should discount his points.

This is all tongue in cheek of course and Zverev is clearly a fine player, but there does seem to be the impression from certain posters that when Kyle wins points he is lucky with the draw but everybody else's points have come from regularly beating Federer, Djokovic and Nadal.

I agree - although in your example, none of Federer, Nadal or Djokovic played that tournament... wink

indiana · Tennis legend

Anyway, talking Kyle and rankings, despite his inarguably poor looking loss here, there is a fair chance that he will be at a new CH 15 in next Monday's rankings, having moved ahead of Bautista Agut.

Borna Coric would have to reach the SF to go above him, any other possibilties at least the final.

-- Edited by indiana on Wednesday 8th of August 2018 04:26:57 PM

brendan · Strong Club Player

indiana wrote:
Anyway, talking Kyke and rankings, despite his inarguably poor looking loss here, there is a fair chance that he will be at a new CH 15 in next Monday's rankings, having moved ahead of Bautista Agut.

Borna Coric would have to reach the SF to go above of him, some others at least the final.

So they don't allow c0ck but they do allow kyke, wonder if they are lefty feminists

indiana · Tennis legend

Oops, Kyke slipped through. I am constantly having to correct a Kyle to Kyke override when on my tablet.

Priesty · Challenger level

indiana wrote:
Oops, Kyke slipped through. I am constantly having to correct a Kyle to Kyke override when on my tablet.

Yes, that happens to me too, you're not on your own Indy smile

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

SuperT wrote:
Vandenburg wrote:
Jaggy1876 wrote:
Still standing by my prediction that Cam will be ahead of Kyle after Aus Open rankings next year.
Strong call, which I have to agree with.
Many people on this forum vastly over rate Edmund, as they do with most things. Take away his fluke points he made from making the AO semi, and he is about 50 in the ATP race. This is a true reflection of his ranking. He has never been top 20 quality.
Norrie has a more rounded game, and could have a steady top 30 career, but doubt he can be top 20.
Interesting, but I don't understand why so many people on this forum underestimate Kyle? He has made steady and consistent progress over the past 5 or 6 years with no huge peaks or troughs - just a steady upwards curve. He's clearly a consummate professional looking to improve all areas of his game so I see no reason why he shouldn't continue to progress over the next couple of years, slowly and unspectacularly as he always does. He may never crack the top 10, but he obviously does have top 20 quality as the rankings don't lie.
Of course this is just my opinion!!

I agree.

Kyle can sometimes be disappointing, underwhleming. And he has certain definite weaknesses.

But, in a way, even more credit to him for getting where he's gotten and the upwards potential is even more.

As you say, the rankings don't lie. Vandy has constantly said the guy is only a challenger player (whatever exactly that is). And that's not right - he's going to be 15th in the world !

And as someone else said aptly, it's not just Kyle who gets some lucky points and/or doesn't always look to play his level: did anyone see Pouille against Felix A-A last night? Leaving Felix being great out of it, Pouille - as often - was dreadful ! The man is 18 (ex-10) and half the time you'd be absolutely nonplussed to explain why and how....

From a neutral point of view, Kyle isn't my favourite to watch and he's not threatening the top 10 (yet) but his ranking is a true one, even if he does go down at some point (almost inevitable).

christ · Futures level

SuperT wrote:
... I don't understand why so many people on this forum underestimate Kyle? ...

I don't think "many" do. I think that some controversy seekers try to bait the majority by posting deliberately provocative things about players that most forum members appear to like.

Personally I think that Mr Edmund is a very solid top fifty player that will spend time in the top twenty - mayhap even ten - as luck and results dictate. I can't see him troubling the top 5, but then again Tiger Tim did, so who knows.

Vandenburg · Futures level

Coup Droit wrote:
SuperT wrote:
Vandenburg wrote:
Jaggy1876 wrote:
Still standing by my prediction that Cam will be ahead of Kyle after Aus Open rankings next year.
Strong call, which I have to agree with.
Many people on this forum vastly over rate Edmund, as they do with most things. Take away his fluke points he made from making the AO semi, and he is about 50 in the ATP race. This is a true reflection of his ranking. He has never been top 20 quality.
Norrie has a more rounded game, and could have a steady top 30 career, but doubt he can be top 20.
Interesting, but I don't understand why so many people on this forum underestimate Kyle? He has made steady and consistent progress over the past 5 or 6 years with no huge peaks or troughs - just a steady upwards curve. He's clearly a consummate professional looking to improve all areas of his game so I see no reason why he shouldn't continue to progress over the next couple of years, slowly and unspectacularly as he always does. He may never crack the top 10, but he obviously does have top 20 quality as the rankings don't lie.
Of course this is just my opinion!!
I agree.
Kyle can sometimes be disappointing, underwhleming. And he has certain definite weaknesses.
But, in a way, even more credit to him for getting where he's gotten and the upwards potential is even more.
As you say, the rankings don't lie. Vandy has constantly said the guy is only a challenger player (whatever exactly that is). And that's not right - he's going to be 15th in the world !
And as someone else said aptly, it's not just Kyle who gets some lucky points and/or doesn't always look to play his level: did anyone see Pouille against Felix A-A last night? Leaving Felix being great out of it, Pouille - as often - was dreadful ! The man is 18 (ex-10) and half the time you'd be absolutely nonplussed to explain why and how....
From a neutral point of view, Kyle isn't my favourite to watch and he's not threatening the top 10 (yet) but his ranking is a true one, even if he does go down at some point (almost inevitable).

A few points here, I accept at the end of the premiership season, the table does not lie, in the same way the atp rankings do not lie.

But come on they do. Lopez for example for years was always among the top 10 grass players in the world, but never a top 10 player, but on grass would be a demon.

Or what about players, that vulture asian challengers where the seedings is about 150-250.

Of course the rankings do lie!

Kyle is probably a top 50 player, that is all, no shame in that, never said he was a challenger player.

Edmund himself will admit he go lucky at the AO, and draw opened up.

But all this hype that Edmund is a future top 10 player or a GS champion is frankly silly,as he does not have the game.

When the AO sf points drop off next year, Norrie will overtake him.

Stircrazy · Tennis legend

L16: (6) Jamie Murray & Bruno Soares (BRA) CR 19 (9+10) vs Nikola Mektic & Alexander Peya (CRO/AUT) CR 42 (24+18)

indiana · Tennis legend

Good to at least know that Cam will have more ranking points than he does now. For if Kyle was not to win another match until after the Australian Open apart from 10 points in each of the mandatories he would otherwise still be higher in the rankings than Cam. Close thing though, 825 points to 824

So if it's any sort of contest it's roughly going to be the additional points Kyle wins over the additional net points ( over and above the 340 points that he has coming off ) that Cam wins. Think my money is on Kyle there.

Of course I hope that they both have some good results up to and including that Australian Open which will probably leave Kyle well clear.

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

Vandenburg wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
SuperT wrote:
Vandenburg wrote:
Jaggy1876 wrote:
Still standing by my prediction that Cam will be ahead of Kyle after Aus Open rankings next year.
Strong call, which I have to agree with.
Many people on this forum vastly over rate Edmund, as they do with most things. Take away his fluke points he made from making the AO semi, and he is about 50 in the ATP race. This is a true reflection of his ranking. He has never been top 20 quality.
Norrie has a more rounded game, and could have a steady top 30 career, but doubt he can be top 20.
Interesting, but I don't understand why so many people on this forum underestimate Kyle? He has made steady and consistent progress over the past 5 or 6 years with no huge peaks or troughs - just a steady upwards curve. He's clearly a consummate professional looking to improve all areas of his game so I see no reason why he shouldn't continue to progress over the next couple of years, slowly and unspectacularly as he always does. He may never crack the top 10, but he obviously does have top 20 quality as the rankings don't lie.
Of course this is just my opinion!!
I agree.
Kyle can sometimes be disappointing, underwhleming. And he has certain definite weaknesses.
But, in a way, even more credit to him for getting where he's gotten and the upwards potential is even more.
As you say, the rankings don't lie. Vandy has constantly said the guy is only a challenger player (whatever exactly that is). And that's not right - he's going to be 15th in the world !
And as someone else said aptly, it's not just Kyle who gets some lucky points and/or doesn't always look to play his level: did anyone see Pouille against Felix A-A last night? Leaving Felix being great out of it, Pouille - as often - was dreadful ! The man is 18 (ex-10) and half the time you'd be absolutely nonplussed to explain why and how....
From a neutral point of view, Kyle isn't my favourite to watch and he's not threatening the top 10 (yet) but his ranking is a true one, even if he does go down at some point (almost inevitable).
A few points here, I accept at the end of the premiership season, the table does not lie, in the same way the atp rankings do not lie.
But come on they do. Lopez for example for years was always among the top 10 grass players in the world, but never a top 10 player, but on grass would be a demon.
Or what about players, that vulture asian challengers where the seedings is about 150-250.
Of course the rankings do lie!
Kyle is probably a top 50 player, that is all, no shame in that, never said he was a challenger player.
Edmund himself will admit he go lucky at the AO, and draw opened up.
But all this hype that Edmund is a future top 10 player or a GS champion is frankly silly,as he does not have the game.
When the AO sf points drop off next year, Norrie will overtake him.

Draws have a tendency to do that if you take out the top seed in your section in the opening round wink

In Kyle's quarter of the draw, the top 3 seeds were (11) Anderson, now WR 6, (8) Sock, who went out in R1 and (3) Dimitrov now WR 5. Kyle beat both Anderson and Dimitrov. So the draw opened up because Kyle opened it up with those victories.

Do I think Kyle will make Top 10 ? Yes. For reasons I have given previously about his single minded dedication. Of course, I may be proved wrong. Will he win a slam ? Maybe, maybe not. I certainly have never gone out on a limb and said that he WILL win a slam, although of course I hope he does. But his career will not be defined, certainly on my part, by whether or not he does.

But this is why we love tennis and why we love this board. It is full of opinions and we are each entitled to them.

indiana · Tennis legend

indiana wrote:
Anyway, talking Kyle and rankings, despite his inarguably poor looking loss here, there is a fair chance that he will be at a new CH 15 in next Monday's rankings, having moved ahead of Bautista Agut.

Borna Coric would have to reach the SF to go above him, any other possibilties at least the final.

-- Edited by indiana on Wednesday 8th of August 2018 04:26:57 PM

And Coric is out, having been beaten by his fellow Croat Cilic last night.

indiana · Tennis legend

Del Potro has withdrawn without playing ( rather worryingly due to "Left wrist pain" ).

If he had withdrawn rather earlier Kyle would have been seeded.