Week 14 - WTA Premier ($800K) - Charleston, USA Clay

Strongbow · All-time great

RE: Week 14 - WTA Premier ($800K) - Charleston, USA Clay

Oakland2002 · All-time great

Well on clay, a surface she has not played on for 10-11 months in her most successful year, 2017 she played 8 matches over 5 tournaments if you include DC and won only 3 matches. Perhaps there is something to fix? I think it is difficult to just accept you are not good on clay if you want to be as good as you can be and really if that is the approach that has taken you into the top 10 in the world one really has to continue to adjust to stay there.

I don't think golf is such a great analogy, many great tennis players constantly adjust to improve their game, Rodge recently adjusted the length of his swing with devastating effect, Rafa also made adjustments with success, Andy when a top 10 player completely adjusted his game to become much more aggressive that has lead him to grand slam wins and being no 1 in the world.

I accept she hasn't performed at the exceptional standards of 2017 on other surfaces but clay is not really the surface on which you would spect her to turn things round, ie. an early loss here .... how many matches has she played on green clay ever? Is not that unexpected, a shock for Daily Mail online but not really for the frequenter of this board.

Ultimately at some point in your career your game declines but I feel Jo has no choice but continue to refine her game, if you don't try you will never find ways to get better. A bit like Man Utd yesterday if you are going to die, die trying who knows what might happen.

Michael D · All-time great

On the contrary, Oakland, I think golf is a wonderful analogy because both sports are about producing effective swings that maximise a player's strengths, and are reliable and repeatable under pressure. Golfers are constantly tinkering too with their swings, but just like Roger, the wise ones don't mess with the basic essence and strength of what makes them what they are. So Federer may adjust the length of his swing, but he is not going to mess with its smooth elegance. In contrast, Jo had a devastatingly effective forehand, and she has messed with it. Her performances on clay were about range of shots and tactics, and did not require her dismantling one of her key strengths in order to achieve better results on the surface.

I also like emma's analogy a lot and think it is very relevant for Jo. At the moment the sum of her swing parts are working disjointedly, and do have the appearance of the wrong technician having tried to put her pieces back together again. One of Federer's strengths is his adaptive ability - same as Andy - but presently Jo has lost hers.

-- Edited by Michael D on Sunday 8th of April 2018 07:18:08 AM

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

What is worrying about Jo's forehand is that, yes , it's true that as Michael says, she used to have a devastating forehand. But that was only last year or so. Three or four years ago (as an adult, pro player) she had a pretty dreadful forehand.
She always claimed that she hadn't actually changed her forehand, just got more confident in it.
But it's not true. Some of the mechanics of the shot, the strike point, her stance, lots of bits of it completely changed.
Which was great.
But players revert to type very easily. Many players have their basic teenage game (or the faults of that game) that they have to work constantly to overcome.
It always seems strange - like, they KNOW not to play that horrid slice shot, or not lean backwards and open the wrist, etc. etc., when under pressure on the forehand, say.
And they DO know it. And they've learned 100% how to avoid it in training.
BUT it's a default mechanism, either as a pure fault, or something they got away with at junior level but never works in adult. And it stays very near the surface and needs constant coaching intervention not to let it creep back/come crashing back again.
And Jo's forehand may well be a bit in that category.
The worrying thing is not that she's 'lost' it temporarily but that she's 're-found' the old one.

blob · All-time great

I sort of agree with both here.
Jo's FH previously was fantastic.
But it had an often terrible radar.
When it was calibrated it was always the deadly weapon that we saw in 2016-17.
It wasn't often fully calibrated.
Most often it would fire randomly a few feet long on routine rally strokes. This is also the problem I see most prominently again now.
It has been changed now, it has an exaggerated flourish, like Halep, that was not there in 2016-early 2017, or, from what I recall, and checked, prior to that.

Additionally, Faldo was referenced, and golf, as an example of a sportsperson commiting to major change of their fundamental tools whilst at the peal of their sport in order to attempt to push even higher. Not as an example of the usual incremental tinkering for improvement that every sportsperson undergoes on an ongoing basis.
The sport wasn't really the point ( I might have referenced how Krisztina Egerszegi completely remodelled her turns off the wall after winning Olympic backstroke gold in 1988, but didn't think that would be so well known

).

Jo seems to have done that, though not to so dramatic extent. So perhaps a dis-assemby is not quite right. Intereference in the call, a drop in the broadband signal, rain on the day of the rockets lauch...

ROSAMUND · Futures level

In answer to Oakland2002's question has Jo ever played on green clay before? The answer is yes. However it was probably under the Australian flag as it was in the 1st round of qualifying at Charleston in 2011 when she lost to Sania Mirza. She's played in quite a few $25k. clay court events in the USA over the years but I don't know what sort of clay it is.

Apart from debating the reasons for Jo's slump and technical issues regarding Jo's forehands etc. I must admit that I cannot be optimistic about Jo's future after Wimbledon. Judging by the performance at Charleston it's hard to be optimistic about Jo winning any matches on clay courts. Unless she can replicate last years grass court results she is going to have a big fall down the rankings probably ranking somewhere between 80 and 90. She might be struggling to get direct entry to the US Open and will probably find herself having to qualify for the main draw of other WTA events. Come this time next year one could bet that Mike Joyce will not be Jo's coach anymore. In a way Heather Watson is in a worse position because the Charleston result did not affect Jo's ranking but Heather lost 60 ranking points for losing points gained at Monterrey in 2017. Not sure why Heather opted for Charleston. Heather also has points from the grass courts to defend and based on 2018 results Gabi Taylor would rank higher than Heather these days.

blob · All-time great

For Jo on Green Clay, in 2015 and previously, she played in all of: Jackson, MS; Pelham, AL; Dothan, AL
All of those are on green clay, HarTru courts.

JonH · All-time great

blob wrote:
For Jo on Green Clay, in 2015 and previously, she played in all of: Jackson, MS; Pelham, AL; Dothan, AL
All of those are on green clay, HarTru courts.

how does green clay play v red? I recall the US open in the mid 70s was on har tru when connors won finals v villas and I always imagined it played slightly quicker than red and perhaps more like our red shale in the Gb?

blob · All-time great

JonH wrote:
blob wrote:
For Jo on Green Clay, in 2015 and previously, she played in all of: Jackson, MS; Pelham, AL; Dothan, AL
All of those are on green clay, HarTru courts.
how does green clay play v red? I recall the US open in the mid 70s was on har tru when connors won finals v villas and I always imagined it played slightly quicker than red and perhaps more like our red shale in the Gb?

I've never stood or played on one, but the consensus seem to be that it's between a slow hard court and red clay both in terms of speed, and the impact it makes on the body; it's firmer than Terre battue and the slide is a little less precise..
It's just a different type of mineral ground down

JonH · All-time great

blob wrote:
JonH wrote:
blob wrote:
For Jo on Green Clay, in 2015 and previously, she played in all of: Jackson, MS; Pelham, AL; Dothan, AL
All of those are on green clay, HarTru courts.
how does green clay play v red? I recall the US open in the mid 70s was on har tru when connors won finals v villas and I always imagined it played slightly quicker than red and perhaps more like our red shale in the Gb?
I've never stood or played on one, but the consensus seem to be that it's between a slow hard court and red clay both in terms of speed, and the impact it makes on the body; it's firmer than Terre battue and the slide is a little less precise..
It's just a different type of mineral ground down

that does sound more like the red shale many of us older folks will remember. I played my tennis largely in the late 70's, 80's and 90's when I was in my teens/20's/30's and many of the clubs we played had red shale a la Bournemouth and the old British Hard courts champs. Very slippy, but hard to slide on easily, imprecise bounce but largely slower than hard court. Terrible things to play on! And of course we invented artificial grass as well around then, carpet on sand and terrible surfaces!

Peter too · Tennis legend

JonH wrote:
blob wrote:
JonH wrote:
blob wrote:
For Jo on Green Clay, in 2015 and previously, she played in all of: Jackson, MS; Pelham, AL; Dothan, AL
All of those are on green clay, HarTru courts.
how does green clay play v red? I recall the US open in the mid 70s was on har tru when connors won finals v villas and I always imagined it played slightly quicker than red and perhaps more like our red shale in the Gb?
I've never stood or played on one, but the consensus seem to be that it's between a slow hard court and red clay both in terms of speed, and the impact it makes on the body; it's firmer than Terre battue and the slide is a little less precise..
It's just a different type of mineral ground down
that does sound more like the red shale many of us older folks will remember. I played my tennis largely in the late 70's, 80's and 90's when I was in my teens/20's/30's and many of the clubs we played had red shale a la Bournemouth and the old British Hard courts champs. Very slippy, but hard to slide on easily, imprecise bounce but largely slower than hard court. Terrible things to play on! And of course we invented artificial grass as well around then, carpet on sand and terrible surfaces!

Bournemouth was Green Clay when I was there in 2013.

blob · All-time great

That's very interesting.
I understood that the reason for the SE US preference with regards to green clay is because the mineral from which it is derived is abundant in Appalachia, whereas a suitable mineral for red clay is not available locally. They take the local resource and make an equivalent surface from it.
Would Bournemouth or British bedrock be more similar to the US than the continent? Or, more likely, did they chose a US supplier.
Either way, surprised that it would be more cost effective to install a green clay surface than one of red clay from Europe. Perhaps there is a local, or European source that could be used for Green Clay, it's just not generally tapped, in deference to the popularity of Red Clay in Europe.
The US Green Clay manufacturers claim it is lower maintenance, hard wearing and more forgiving than red clay, but then, they would, wouldn't they.
Perhaps we could get down to Dover for a sticky white 'clay' court, from local materials - the British alternative.

JonH · All-time great

Peter too wrote:
JonH wrote:
blob wrote:
JonH wrote:
blob wrote:
For Jo on Green Clay, in 2015 and previously, she played in all of: Jackson, MS; Pelham, AL; Dothan, AL
All of those are on green clay, HarTru courts.
how does green clay play v red? I recall the US open in the mid 70s was on har tru when connors won finals v villas and I always imagined it played slightly quicker than red and perhaps more like our red shale in the Gb?
I've never stood or played on one, but the consensus seem to be that it's between a slow hard court and red clay both in terms of speed, and the impact it makes on the body; it's firmer than Terre battue and the slide is a little less precise..
It's just a different type of mineral ground down
that does sound more like the red shale many of us older folks will remember. I played my tennis largely in the late 70's, 80's and 90's when I was in my teens/20's/30's and many of the clubs we played had red shale a la Bournemouth and the old British Hard courts champs. Very slippy, but hard to slide on easily, imprecise bounce but largely slower than hard court. Terrible things to play on! And of course we invented artificial grass as well around then, carpet on sand and terrible surfaces!
Bournemouth was Green Clay when I was there in 2013.

the old British hard courts at Bournemouth where on red shake and they changed to green clay when they ran the futures events more recently

JonH · All-time great

pen-era-begins-bournemouth/53733/">www.tennis.com/pro-game/2015/01/196

pen-era-begins-bournemouth/53733/

Read half way down about the red clay/ shale

skibbarriz · Strong Club Player

I think Anne K will be flapping right now. Switching out the amber bulb and putting in the red.