Week 8 - WTA Premier ($2,623,485) - Dubai, UAE

indiana · Tennis legend

Week 8 - WTA Premier ($2,623,485) - Dubai, UAE

blob · All-time great

It seems to me that Jo was always leading only because Kasatkina was not focusng, the better tennis is all the Russians by a margin.
Jo's play across both matches here so far has been really quite poor. Pavlyuchenkova was dreadful, and beat herself. Kasatakina looked for a while like doing the same.
Now, having shaken herself out of it, and on a roll, I haven't seen anything that Jo has shown that makes me believe that she can change the script.
There are too many completely unforced and ugly errors, and the serve is not doing nearly as much work as she relies upon it to do.
In truth, Jo is still in almost exactly the same form as the second half of last year. The miracle turnaround may come, but i don't see why it will. I hope it will. I'll be delighted. But I see no evidence in this match.

She's trying hard though, having been broken to start the decider, she has somehow dug out a break of her own. I would have said this would be almost one way traffic at 0-1*
What do I know? (nothing) Lets go JoKo!

6-4 6-7(6) *1-1

Bellis and Muguruza have to play after this still, well after midnight local time.

seagull · Hall of fame

This is so frustrating to watch. Kasatkina just gets everything back

SuperT · Futures level

I'm watching this and finding it frustrating too. Throughout the match Jo has made far too many unforced errors and didn't take the opportunities to win the match in two sets. I agree with Blob that Kasatkina is the most likely winner. Hope i'm wrong.

the addict · Tennis legend

Hmm, you must be watching on catchup !

63 UF errors for Jo cry

flamingowings · All-time great

Jo hasn't really gotten going yet this year, has she? If it continues she will be facing a hefty drop until post Wimbledon where she barely won any matches.

blob · All-time great

6-4 6-7(6) 2-6

I'll repeat the claim I made in the AO thread: Johanna will not finish the year as GB #1
I've already done the calculations just to be sure she won't need a WC for Wimbledon (she won't - USO is another matter).
There is nothing there, everything has shifted slightly, and none of it works now. The FH is 'off' again unable to stay in the lines, the serve has no pop or bite, and opponents aren't being hit back behind the baseline, the overheads and volleys have deteriorated from an already poor position...

Things can change, and turnaround, and get back into fine fettle, of course. I always had faith in Carril and Fissette - even in the ling drough under the latter - that there was a clear plan, and that solutions would be found to the natural variations and variability in Johanna's game. My initial disapproval of Joyce was based on the Sharapova connection, and the things he implied about Serena rather than his techincal merit. Now though, every time I see him, I can't believe he is a good match for Johanna. They never seem to be on the same wavelength - she has to ask him what he means more often than either of the other two, and English is his first language. They invariably end up talking about how lucky the other player is being, rather than the contrast of Carril & Fissette, who came down, had a plan, a good plan, perhaps not always the best or a successful plan, but you could see where the process was directed, and they imparted that clearly and concisely, and Johanna focused on what she was told because she is an impeccable student and professional and did what she was told, even when she didn't necessarily believe it, and the results came. [that's a long sentence!]

So, I'm... not worried exactly... resigned... no, not quite... just... realistic. I want to say otherwise, not just a Brit, Jo is my player, the one (Bally apart) I have championed and rooted for hardest (well maybe tied second with Hev). But I just can't based on what I'm seeing.
I don't know how many others watch enough to pass judgement, but I'd really like someone to just tell me to shut up completely (generally) but in this case to do so because they have evidence to present an opposing case so compelling there's no other alternative but to withdraw.
I don't like talking players down.

flamingowings · All-time great

As you say blob, there is something not quite working with Jo at the moment.

I wonder if it's anything to do with the death of her mentor in late 2016/early 2017? (Is that correct?) Grief can do so many strange things to people (I can attest).

seagull · Hall of fame

So who will finish the year as GB no one? There are not many candidates!

blob · All-time great

seagull wrote:
So who will finish the year as GB no one? There are not many candidates!

The way I'm guessing, Heather will more or less stay where she is, and that will be sufficient.

Regarding flamingowings point:

flamingowings wrote:
As you say blob, there is something not quite working with Jo at the moment.

I wonder if it's anything to do with the death of her mentor in late 2016/early 2017? (Is that correct?) Grief can do so many strange things to people (I can attest).

It's hard to speculate, 2017 was so good until after Wimbledon, it's difficult to attribute much to it. But perhaps, when times are tougher and you need that one voice to turn to and they're no longer available it might have an effect.
That's all baseless recursive speculation - a possibility, but I have no evidence to present that it's a probability. let alone true.

Edit: the usual sausage fingered typing

-- Edited by blob on Wednesday 21st of February 2018 08:44:31 PM

flamingowings · All-time great

blob wrote:
seagull wrote:
So who will finish the year as GB no one? There are not many candidates!
The way I'm guessing, Heather will more or less stay where she is, and that will be sufficient.
Regarding flamingowings point:
flamingowings wrote:
As you say blob, there is something not quite working with Jo at the moment.

I wonder if it's anything to do with the death of her mentor in late 2016/early 2017? (Is that correct?) Grief can do so many strange things to people (I can attest).
It's hard to speculate, 2017 was so good until after Wimbledon, it's difficult to attribute much to it. But perhaps, when times are tougher and you need that one voice to turn to and they're no longer available it might have an effect.
That's all baseless recursive speculation - a possibility, but I have no evidence to prent that it's a probability. let alone true.

Whatever it is, JoKo needs to get her MoJo back and sharpish.

RE: GB no.1 We've been spoilt as the thought of Heather still lurking around the 65-75 mark and being GB 1 is depressing to me. Our women are capable of much more - this goes to Broady, Laura etc as well.

the addict · Tennis legend

It's very easy to see Jo dropping out of the top 30 by the end of the grass court season on current form, maybe further. If she doesn't turn it round in time for Miami, she's going to be dropping a lot of points week after week. On the other hand, Heather, Naomi and others aren't showing enough signs of moving up, and we may have to wait for Katie Boulter and the other younger players to make their move.

JonH · All-time great

blob wrote:
6-4 6-7(6) 2-6

I'll repeat the claim I made in the AO thread: Johanna will not finish the year as GB #1
I've already done the calculations just to be sure she won't need a WC for Wimbledon (she won't - USO is another matter).
There is nothing there, everything has shifted slightly, and none of it works now. The FH is 'off' again unable to stay in the lines, the serve has no pop or bite, and opponents aren't being hit back behind the baseline, the overheads and volleys have deteriorated from an already poor position...

Things can change, and turnaround, and get back into fine fettle, of course. I always had faith in Carril and Fissette - even in the ling drough under the latter - that there was a clear plan, and that solutions would be found to the natural variations and variability in Johanna's game. My initial disapproval of Joyce was based on the Sharapova connection, and the things he implied about Serena rather than his techincal merit. Now though, every time I see him, I can't believe he is a good match for Johanna. They never seem to be on the same wavelength - she has to ask him what he means more often than either of the other two, and English is his first language. They invariably end up talking about how lucky the other player is being, rather than the contrast of Carril & Fissette, who came down, had a plan, a good plan, perhaps not always the best or a successful plan, but you could see where the process was directed, and they imparted that clearly and concisely, and Johanna focused on what she was told because she is an impeccable student and professional and did what she was told, even when she didn't necessarily believe it, and the results came. [that's a long sentence!]

So, I'm... not worried exactly... resigned... no, not quite... just... realistic. I want to say otherwise, not just a Brit, Jo is my player, the one (Bally apart) I have championed and rooted for hardest (well maybe tied second with Hev). But I just can't based on what I'm seeing.
I don't know how many others watch enough to pass judgement, but I'd really like someone to just tell me to shut up completely (generally) but in this case to do so because they have evidence to present an opposing case so compelling there's no other alternative but to withdraw.
I don't like talking players down.

So what exactly has gone wrong. From what you describe, it cant be all mental, her game seems to have gone off technically.I say this without having seen a shot as I dont have any way of watching tennis except normal freeview channels that dont ever show tennis! Her sudden rise and almost equally sudden fall seem strange and clearly something happened to help her that is no longer helping her. Her natural place might be well down the rankings, what was it that clicked mentally or physically that got her top 10 and as quick as it went up seems be going down?

the addict · Tennis legend

As blob posted above, several things are just not working right now. I got the impression today that she was trying too hard, and getting anxious when it just wasn't coming off. It seems to have been like that for a few weeks now - I thought she looked terribly nervous during the Fed Cup, unlike Hev who looked quietly confident despite some slow starts. I also think that the expectancy is starting to tell, and without the right coaching backup it's just getting worse. She actually seemed to play worse after talking to Joyce. So many unforced errors today, both long, wide and into the net.

Michael D · All-time great

In the Fed Cup I was surprised how little variety Jo's game had. She almost never came into the net, even when the game situation was crying out for her to do so, and she has definitely lost power off both her serve and forehand, so she was struggling to hit winners or even control rallies at times. Too much, as said above, was about waiting for the other to make errors, so if she is amassing them herself instead, then she's in trouble. I have not been happy about her turn around of coaches end of both the last two years, I wasn't sure either was really called for. Joyce I don't know, apart from having similar misgivings from those expressed earlier. And never mind Sharapova's ethics, just her game in itself wouldn't seem to me the best recommendation for a coach. Going from those she had in Spain/ Fissette to Joyce doesn't sound real progress and I'm in agreement with flamingowings comments... I also don't think Jo has really got over the death of Juan Coto, her mental coach, who rather terribly took his own life. In fact, I think Jo is running at the moment, although she herself I am sure wouldn't agree with that, but I suspect she is. She's not 'home' anywhere at the moment in her head.

Like blob, all suppositions, but her game has lost its previous irresistible force that's for sure. I hope she finds some better peace somewhere as I suspect that's what she needs, to return to where she was earlier. Of course she did relatively well first half of last year... but delayed effects and all. Wonderful to see Jo prove us all wrong, unless/ until some of our younger players come through, I still feel she will remain our #1 player.