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Lambda · Futures qualifying

The LTA

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Lambda wrote:
JonH comes home wrote:

Lambda wrote:
Shhh wrote:

Exactly what is the Pro Scholarship Programme?

The PSP is for 16 to 24 year olds (with career prize money of less than £1m) with the best chance of making the top 100 or in doubles, the top 30. It provides support including a grant of at least £45,000, access to LTA coaches, strength and conditioning programmes and science and medical support. It will depend on the individual player contracts as to exactly what they get and are required to do.

https://www.lta.org.uk/compete/performance/player-pathway/pro-scholarship-programme/

PSP 2023 Selection criteria
Thanks for the info Lambda - and how does the Mens and womens programme work below that - it seemed strange Ali Gray was on that, the rest all seem to be juniors, whereas he would seem more aligned to the pro scholarship cohort??

The MWP is a 2 year programme for 14 to 21 year olds with the most potential for meeting the criteria to move on to the PSP within 2 years. 12 and 13 year olds can be on it if they have reached the SF of a Super Category event (which is why Hannah got on it last year as a 12/13 yo). Grants are lower than the PSP at between £5k and £35k. They'll get training camps, official trips, and GB ITF WCs.
https://www.lta.org.uk/compete/performance/player-pathway/mens-womens-programme/

-- Edited by Lambda on Tuesday 7th of March 2023 12:31:16 PM

thanks Lambda - ALi G still seems old for it, it says to be eligible through the University route:

"up to 23 on 31/12/22 if they have finished at a UK or US University in 2021 or 2022";

Whereas Ali was 24 last June and is coming up 25 this year!!

Lambda · Futures qualifying

JonH comes home wrote:

thanks Lambda - ALi G still seems old for it, it says to be eligible through the University route:
"up to 23 on 31/12/22 if they have finished at a UK or US University in 2021 or 2022";
Whereas Ali was 24 last June and is coming up 25 this year!!

The 2023 selection policy is for players to come on to the programme and those selected get a 2 year contract. But this is Ali G's 2nd year on the MWP so he would have been selected on the 2022 selection criteria which was 23 on 31/12/21 for players graduating in 2020 and 2021 and he'll be in the middle of his 2 years on the MWP.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Lambda wrote:
JonH comes home wrote:

thanks Lambda - ALi G still seems old for it, it says to be eligible through the University route:
"up to 23 on 31/12/22 if they have finished at a UK or US University in 2021 or 2022";
Whereas Ali was 24 last June and is coming up 25 this year!!

Ah ok, thats more logical then. Thanks Lambda
The 2023 selection policy is for players to come on to the programme and those selected get a 2 year contract. But this is Ali G's 2nd year on the MWP so he would have been selected on the 2022 selection criteria which was 23 on 31/12/21 for players graduating in 2020 and 2021 and he'll be in the middle of his 2 years on the MWP.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Lambda wrote:
The LTA have published updated lists for those on their programmes. For 2023, Sonay Kartal and Felix Gill move on to the Pro Scholarship Programme, while Katie Boulter, Fran Jones, Jack Draper and Aidan Mchugh are no longer on the PSP. On the Men's and Womens Programme, new for 2023 are Eva Shaw and Oli Bonding. As well as Felix Gill, also leaving the MWP is Joe Mazingham.

Pro Scholarship Programme
Jodie Burrage
Harriet Dart
Sonay Kartal
Paul Jubb
Felix Gill

Men's and Womens Programme
Amarni Banks
Hannah Klugman
Jasmine Conway
Isabelle Lacy
Alastair Gray
Oli Bonding
Max Carrier
Ben Gusic-Wan
Eva Shaw

-- Edited by Lambda on Monday 6th of March 2023 11:42:20 PM

Your lists and explanations are brilliant, Lambda

My question is how does this fit in with the academy places?

i.e. Isabelle Lacy is on this list but Mimi isn't, nor Hep, nor Talia or Ella.....

Now, Isabelle can't surely be considered head and shoulders above Mimi, Hep, Talia, Ella....

So is she on this list because unlike the others, she's not at an academy?

so do you get one or the other, so to speak?

Lambda · Futures qualifying

Yes, one or the other. Someone at the National Academy isn't eligible for another of the development programmes. But I don't think there's any benefit of being part of both. Other than the grant the MWP gives I don't think the MWP gives any benefits that they wouldn't already get at the Academy. They'll still get organised trips, increased weighting when considered for WCs compared with players not on a LTA development programme.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Thanks for that Lambda

I assume the same applies to anyone at college

i.e. Felix is on the list but not Arthur because Arthur is at college, not because Felix is rated higher than Arthur by the LTA?

Still all rather weird to me - having Hannah and Ali G on exactly the same programme doesn't seem to make any sense (to me)

Jasmine Conway's name seems to me to be a little Nigel Sears related.....

Max Carrier?

Harriet's inclusion still hasn't been explained, has it? (Given her age)

All rather spotty, I'd say.....

kundalini · Specialist Reporter + Intermediate Club Player

Coup Droit wrote:

Harriet's inclusion still hasn't been explained, has it? (Given her age)

All rather spotty, I'd say.....

If you read the 2023 selection policy guidelines sections 3.4 to 3.7 (I don't recommend it) https://www.lta.org.uk/4a8d6f/siteassets/pro-players/psp-selection-policy-2023-final-version-.pdf , the LTA give themselves just enough room to ignore nearly all the headline criteria.

For instance, once you've earned $1m prize money as stated on WTA/ATP website, you are no longer eligible - is the headline, in the small print, it is up to the panel if the player should be reselected.

Another headline is not for top 100 players, small print says panel will allow one more year after reaching top 100. Only for players aged 24 and under, no surprise that the small print allows them to offer a player a multiple year deal that will provide them funding well beyond age 24.

Miss the bulk of a season through injury, panel may provide an extra year of funding (this bit is much earlier in the document, section 2 something). This would help to explain Katie B reaching top 100, then still being on PSP in 2022, though perhaps the rules were different when decisions were made regarding her eligibility on PSP. Still hard to understand why Fran Jones isn't on PSP this year.

There is even a max 5 year criteria for being on the PSP program, that turns out to be 5+ years if the panel have the cash and wish to spend it on Harriet; on the topic of players coming to the end of their 5 years, the LTA state "The Selection Panel may at their absolute discretion offer a one year extension to the existing funding agreement, renewable on an annual basis".

I had thought that PSP decisions were reviewed annually in light of ranking progress, injuries, prize money earned etc but having read the document, I get the impression that in some cases the time period may be longer than that.

-- Edited by kundalini on Wednesday 8th of March 2023 07:14:13 PM

Lambda · Futures qualifying

On Katie B, I heard on commentary last year (I think it was Sam Smith) that KB had been given a year extension because of the time out for her back injury.

Strongbow · All-time great

That makes sense - a Fed cup tie that didn't matter disbelief

Elegant Point · Satellite level

Coup Droit wrote:
(on the junior thread)

I was told last year that the cost to the LTA of keeping a child at Loughborough is approx £120k per year

This represents a significant investment by the LTA in a few very young players!

Lots of interesting literature on the subject of talent ID, what does talent mean?, how to nurture it etc. Also the identification of talent age, compared to the age at which the athlete reaches the highest level in tennis. The average age of a male and female top 100 player is 28.26 and 25.8 respectively.

Much of the literature stresses the benefits of playing multiple sports whilst young, are those at the LTA talent centres actively encouraged to do this? Also recommendations that coaches should not overstate performance through overly structured practices in sport during the childhood years within sports where peak performance is reach during adulthood, because children are not able to fully understand the effects that practice has on their performance in sport until they reach the age of 12 or 13 years.

IMO (and I have said this before) removing children from an environment where they and their tennis are are thriving to an academy often miles away from friends, family and familiar coaching team isnt always the best strategy.

I hope the LTA are tracking all of the selection and performance data for these players (not sure that data would ever see the light of day wink ) , they will then be able to determine the success of the programme, value for money and also compare with other countries resources/spend/strategies/results.

Couldnt find a link with data tracking which countries are best at producing the next gen of players, but IMO the USA currently has some of the most exciting up and coming youngsters on the mens side, many of whom have come through the college system.

(Bruner, M. W., Strachan, L., & Côté, J. (2011). Developmental transitions in sport. In I. Stafford (Ed.), Coaching children in sport (pp. 227-239). London: Routledge)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3658407/ Jayanthi et al (2013) Sports specialisation in Young athletes

https://www.chaseyoursport.com/Tennis/Ranking-the-5-countries-that-produce-best-tennis-talent/3268

-- Edited by Elegant Point on Saturday 11th of March 2023 12:25:56 PM

Elegant Point · Satellite level

Hopes extinguished of Great Britain having a womens player in the worlds top 100
Jodie Burrages tame defeat means that, for the first time since 2008, GB will be missing from the elite when the WTA rankings are updated on Monday..

Wondering what the LTA are doing to address the alarming lack of depth in womens tennis? Heres what ChatGPT suggested:

1 Increase funding and resources for women's tennis development programs, focusing on grassroots initiatives to encourage more girls to get involved in tennis at a young age.
2 Create more opportunities for female players to compete in domestic and international tournaments, providing them with more exposure to high-level competition and the chance to earn ranking points.
3 Work with coaches and mentors to develop the skills and potential of promising young players, providing them with the support and guidance they need to succeed.
4 Foster a culture of excellence and accountability within the women's tennis community in the UK, emphasising the importance of hard work, discipline, and dedication to the sport.
5 Collaborate with other tennis organisations around the world to identify best practices and innovative strategies for promoting and developing women's tennis.

And my own two penny worth. I have watched some of the womens semis and finals recently and have also been following Emma. My immediate thoughts were, where are the female coaches, physios, sports psychologists and other support team members? The only woman Ive seen in a players box recently apart from mothers and sisters has been Swiateks spots psychologist Daria Abramowicz.
Whatever peoples views are on Emma, she has had a very positive impact on womens tennis, there was a huge surge in the number of girls signing up to play after her US Open win.

IMO more positive female role models are required and not just at the player level.

Christine · Intermediate Club Player

Elegant Point wrote:
Hopes extinguished of Great Britain having a womens player in the worlds top 100
Jodie Burrages tame defeat means that, for the first time since 2008, GB will be missing from the elite when the WTA rankings are updated on Monday..

Wondering what the LTA are doing to address the alarming lack of depth in womens tennis? Heres what ChatGPT suggested:

1 Increase funding and resources for women's tennis development programs, focusing on grassroots initiatives to encourage more girls to get involved in tennis at a young age.
2 Create more opportunities for female players to compete in domestic and international tournaments, providing them with more exposure to high-level competition and the chance to earn ranking points.
3 Work with coaches and mentors to develop the skills and potential of promising young players, providing them with the support and guidance they need to succeed.
4 Foster a culture of excellence and accountability within the women's tennis community in the UK, emphasising the importance of hard work, discipline, and dedication to the sport.
5 Collaborate with other tennis organisations around the world to identify best practices and innovative strategies for promoting and developing women's tennis.

And my own two penny worth. I have watched some of the womens semis and finals recently and have also been following Emma. My immediate thoughts were, where are the female coaches, physios, sports psychologists and other support team members? The only woman Ive seen in a players box recently apart from mothers and sisters has been Swiateks spots psychologist Daria Abramowicz.
Whatever peoples views are on Emma, she has had a very positive impact on womens tennis, there was a huge surge in the number of girls signing up to play after her US Open win.

IMO more positive female role models are required and not just at the player level.

I totally agree, there are issues that specifically affect women, either totally or affect them more. Having more women involved in support teams and research, focussing on these issues as well as others, would enhance the experience of women players.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Love ChatGBT's advice to the LTA

But the point about women's coaches applies to all female players, obviously

i.e. it can't be why GB has got no top-100 player, if none of the other female players have a female team/entourage either.

It seems obvious that more women in the coaching/physio/well-being side of things is needed.

However, there's a couple of good reasons that top female players tend to have male coaches (some that beg questions but all valid in a way)

(1) For hitting reasons, top female players like male coaches because they are the right level (obviously top men have a problem which they get round, so women with women coaches could do the same but the fact that a male coach (who's approx 1500, say, in level) is a perfect natural hitting partner is an attraction

(2) a lot of younger women, in particular, like a male coach to travel with, they feel safer. Now this might be 'conditioned' thinking but it will also be true - I bet two women travelling get 'hit on' far more than they should - I've heard some stories. Certain countries may be more risky than others. Parents of a 19 year-old travelling may feel far happier if she's with a man. Again, there may be stereotype assumptions at play but also some truth.

(3) Again, stereotype set-ups at play maybe, but a lot of women in their 30s and 40s don't want to do the global constant travelling. They may well have families. They've lived out of suitcases for years, they've had enough. (And I know this applies to men too but, in my experience and for whatever reason, it's a lot less).

Now, there are other reasons too. I saw one French study which basically showed that about 90% of the female players said they're prefer a male coach because they 'trusted' them more and things wouldn't 'get bitchy'. This begs SO many sociological questions but it's still the truth as the women see it....

Elegant Point · Satellite level

Thanks for replies Christine and CD, you both raise excellent points. CDs point (2) is especially sad and something most women can relate to.

Of course I could not resist a quick literature search wink In a 2018 article, a few female coaches including Sarah Stone (WTCA), Judy Murray & Aleksandra Krunic discuss challenges female coaches face and reasons why traditionally there have not been more women coaching players on the professional tour, women or men.

https://www.wtatennis.com/news/1439899/why-arent-there-more-female-coaches-on-tour-coaches-and-players-weigh-in-#:~:text=There%20aren%27t%20jobs%2C,business%2C%20so%20there%27s%20no%20security.

Many other articles, just a few links below:
https://www.tennis.com/news/articles/for-many-reasons-few-seats-for-women-on-the-coaching-carousel

https://sportsleo.com/news/2023/01/female-tennis-coaches-in-history/

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/03/sports/03tennis-coaches.html