The LTA

the addict · Tennis legend

RE: The LTA

Elegant Point · Satellite level

US centric, but an interesting article ......Privilege of Play - tennis dreams often end for BAME families when the costs add up

sports.yahoo.com/privilege-of-play-tennis-2020-010604724.html

junior · Intermediate Club Player

Ufff have to be careful how I word this message as I know in the current day one is not allowed to call a spade a spade. Race doesn't enter into it (my lad), if you don't have millions you can't play pro tennis simple as, no matter how many people repeat that the Williams sisters came from the ghetto, its balderdash

Elegant Point · Satellite level

junior wrote:
Ufff have to be careful how I word this message as I know in the current day one is not allowed to call a spade a spade. Race doesn't enter into it (my lad), if you don't have millions you can't play pro tennis simple as, no matter how many people repeat that the Williams sisters came from the ghetto, its balderdash

Careful indeed....... is your post ironic?? Wolfgang Mieder notes that in the fourth edition of H.L. Mencken's famous book about language in the United State the argument that "to call a spade a spade" should be retired from modern usage: "Rather than taking the chance of unintentionally offending someone or of being misunderstood, it is best to relinquish the old innocuous proverbial expression all together."

Personally I would love to see Paul Jubb win Wimbledon - his family doesn't have millions. I hope the LTA will continue to support him and take an initiative to support more players from atypical tennis backgrounds. A recent article on Paul in the link below

https://www.newsandstar.co.uk/sport/national/18911809.paul-jubb-21-dreaming-big-disrupted-first-year-pro-tennis-player/

junior · Intermediate Club Player

Would expect someone called elegant point to perhaps not argue against facts but there you go, over just stating something you have as personal opinion as fact.I don't know the guy personally but the family will have money end of, the same as Rashford for example, saying he comes from nothing but United and England starter at 18 y/o, its a good story but not true or believable if you have any knowledge about sport, the brilliant thing is that he uses it to help people now, should have given him spoty over lewis imho

flamingowings · All-time great

Russell Fuller
@russellcfuller

The LTA has lost the services of Stephen Farrow: tournament director at Queens Club & the driving force behind Davis Cup & Billie Jean King Cup ties, as well as the other summer grass events. Big shoes to fill in a very challenging year.
3:25 PM · Jan 19, 2021·Twitter for iPad

junior · Intermediate Club Player

Yesterday was having a conversation with some British tennis coach course organizer or something, from the best I could gather is that he runs like a secondary course that sorta breaks down the LTA courses making them "easier to understand". Anyway, we we're discussing the idea he had posted from a LTA lvl 5 so called "Master Professional" coach which was (and he agreed with) in practise make all the mistakes you want as its only practise. I know its not his fault as I'm sure he just takes the nonsense the LTA spew, repaints it a little and makes a living reselling it, but for anyone here involved in tennis classes or have kids involved maybe can help me: is it really that bad? Can legitimately nobody within the LTA structure (course providers, "master professionals") tell you first and foremost the objective of tennis is to actually hit the ball in the court?

-- Edited by junior on Thursday 4th of February 2021 08:58:10 AM

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

junior wrote:
Yesterday was having a conversation with some British tennis coach course organizer or something, from the best I could gather is that he runs like a secondary course that sorta breaks down the LTA courses making them "easier to understand". Anyway, we we're discussing the idea he had posted from a LTA lvl 5 so called "Master Professional" coach which was (and he agreed with) in practise make all the mistakes you want as its only practise. I know its not his fault as I'm sure he just takes the nonsense the LTA spew, repaints it a little and makes a living reselling it, but for anyone here involved in tennis classes or have kids involved maybe can help me: is it really that bad? Can legitimately nobody within the LTA structure (course providers, "master professionals") tell you first and foremost the objective of tennis is to actually hit the ball in the court?

-- Edited by junior on Thursday 4th of February 2021 08:58:10 AM

I am no expert at all but from what I see the guys who are pros, the Djokos, Nadal, Andy etc practice and train like it is a real match - feedback from lesser players when they get to train with these guys is that the intensity and focus is just like being in a real match. Which aligns with what you say, i think!

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

junior wrote:
Yesterday was having a conversation with some British tennis coach course organizer or something, from the best I could gather is that he runs like a secondary course that sorta breaks down the LTA courses making them "easier to understand". Anyway, we we're discussing the idea he had posted from a LTA lvl 5 so called "Master Professional" coach which was (and he agreed with) in practise make all the mistakes you want as its only practise. I know its not his fault as I'm sure he just takes the nonsense the LTA spew, repaints it a little and makes a living reselling it, but for anyone here involved in tennis classes or have kids involved maybe can help me: is it really that bad? Can legitimately nobody within the LTA structure (course providers, "master professionals") tell you first and foremost the objective of tennis is to actually hit the ball in the court?

I'm not a coach but have had a lot of experience working with coaches, in France. For elite/semi-elite youngsters mainly.

THere are different approaches, that's for sure.

I don't think it's a question of training like in a match. i.e. you can train with very high intensity even if treating it as practice (and you can play a match with pretty low intensity)

There were basically two groups of coaches in my experience - (1) learn to hit it in, then learn how to hit it harder, better, etc (2) learn how to hit it hard and well and then learn how to hit it in.

(Of course, all coaches have a balance but you could distill it down to that).

The trend is towards the second.

Youngsters need to hit a full shot, to cover the ball, to follow through, you need that to be instinct and better to hit them out than hold back on it, and become 'petit bras' as they say (little arm?) i.e. truncated, in order to keep it in, because that truncated shot will get 'learned' in the brain and arm pattern and it's very difficult to unlearn.

Basically, many coaches would prefer their kids to lose playing 'well', than win by patting the ball or dinking it, or moonballing it, or whatever.

However, your UK guy makes no sense if he's just saying it doesn't matter if you hit it out, coz it's just practice. The point should be what are you trying to achieve with that session? If it's to work on speed of arm, etc, then it doesn't matter if you hit it out particularly, as long as speed of arm is getting better. If you're doing zonal drills, then you need to get it in the zone, that's the point.

And all practice sessions in France are part drills, part matchplay anyway. (Coaching has moved very much to group sessions). The kids won't want to get beaten at the end. Also, French kids play WAY more matches - junior ones, club ones, adult matches. So, putting the coaching into practice and 'getting it in' is partly covered by just the matchplay part of a normal year.

junior · Intermediate Club Player

I would say the intensity of a session will always come down to the fundamental of applying the objectives to a match, it us possible to play a match at a lower intensity (tired, lower level player) but I wouldn't say anyone would do it willingly. Is why training has to be at absolute minimum match intensity if not even higher as players are learning how to apply them in this situation. If thhe mentality exists that making lots of errors and mistakes in practise means the player will do completely different in a match and not miss a single one? this would not make sense to me

Sounds like the LTA have been doing the same erroneous things since I was a small boy playing tennis there 20 years ago (it's even longer realistically), all they do is claim credit for the work of others to tell themselves how amazing they are. This will never change.

I remember hearing many times "that was a good miss" a lot over there in the UK, the player still missed the shot and lost the point. Was it good because it was a close shot or good because the player went for it but still lost the point? This what we teach, no wonder its a mess, players are given tools they have no idea how to use, then in matches expect miracles to happen, then when they don't they don't know what to do or how to handle things and get angry.

Perhaps we as British people have a bit too much pride at the time to say "hey perhaps we're not the best and that's okay, we still have a lot to learn"?.

-- Edited by junior on Thursday 4th of February 2021 11:39:38 AM

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Just a couple of points:

(1) you're still assuming that, normally, match intensity is higher than training intensity and therefore training 'has to be at the absolute minimum match intensity'.

I know lots of players - mainly young but not always - where training intensity is often higher than match. On a regular basis.

The psychology is interesting.
It can be because, as a group, youngsters will be very competitive with their friends, peer pressure ups the ante.
Also the exercises changes frequently and it's easier to concentrate and go flat out on a new thing, again especially for youngsters with quite short attention spans.

On the other side, a match is a lonely experience, juniors will quite often start high intensity and within 10 mins are playing well below the intensity of training sessions. They've got no friends watching, they don't care, if they start to lose, they sort of sulk and just go through the motions.
(I'm talking top elite juniors here too)

So I don't really buy off on the minimum match intensity argument.

(2) I'm quite happy with the 'good miss' argument.
I agree it's not a goal in and of itself (

) but all coaches I know would prefer the player to choose the right shot, hit the ball well, and miss by a small margin, than just loop it back into court. The first is putting training into practice in match conditions and leads to major improvement, the second leads nowhere.

(Federer got quite antsy once, I saw, in an interview, claiming that commentators and stat people really didn't understand 'unforced errors').

junior · Intermediate Club Player

I respect your opinion Coup, obviously it has been gathered from within our sport, however I personally would not say that you really have any practical and real experience to speak of these things, only mostly ways you think you might of seen things, and "speaking for" coaches and players instead of listening to people who have been there.

If (If) a coach is lucky 1 out of 10 of their players will give match intensity in training, if not then it's likely to be 1 out of 25/30 more like. I assume that players train below their match intensity because I've seen it, worldwide, it's not assuming, it's fact. You have said it yourself, friendly sessions, etc. If a players intensity drops in a match its more to do with the psychology (yes as you have said) but the psychology of the scoreboard over the "can only work in 10 minute bursts of intensity at a time" idea.

As far as the good miss argument, If I train someone to chip and charge against Karlovic and their return goes but centimetres out each time? Is that good miss, is it a good tactic? Is it something I can do effectively, efficiently and repeatedly to have chances at points? Or is it something I might be able to try once and barely see his serve go past me and opt for a different more effective strategy of hopefully just trying to make the return first before anything else.

Just looping the ball in is a good tactic to do and win the match when one is small and doesn't have the biomechanical ability to do all the wonderful things their coach in the UK is telling them to do, as far as professional level we in Spain are the best in the world as what we do, many players (Ramos, Lopez, Ferrer, Ferrer, Even Rafa) have excelled far beyond their "technical" capability would supposedly let them, this because of their ability to play matches and win over all the talent in the world (Shapalov, Kyrgios, Fognini). The French can't do it like us and the British send all their players for us to create so they can claim credit

-- Edited by junior on Thursday 4th of February 2021 01:20:44 PM

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

I'm sorry, junior, I don't know quite what you mean by:

" however I personally would not say that you really have any practical and real experience to speak of these things, only mostly ways you think you might of seen things, and "speaking for" coaches and players instead of listening to people who have been there."

I was President of Junior Tennis for a region in France, for about 10 years, and responsible for all aspects of junior tennis, including coaching. I have been part of endless commission meetings about coaching, strategies, data result analysis, etc etc etc., and responsible for implementing FFT policies re coaching (or bending the rules and not, as seemed appropriate). And seen their results firsthand. Interestingly (to me, at any rate), I've also seen the different results of at least three major policy shifts in the FFT about coaching of youngsters.

I was also part of the regional commission for the Elite Pathway, which was a sub-commission tasked completely with detection and coaching of the small elite group of youngsters.

I'm not trying to play one-upmanship here and I'm interested in your views, and do not know the Spanish system firsthand, but I dispute your claim that I've had no 'practical and real' experience.

junior · Intermediate Club Player

Hi Coup,

I would think the statement stood for itself, I don't know you personally you obviously have experience in your field, but from what you say, to me you don't have the practical or real life experience to talk about coaching and being a player etc. Being out on court in the practical world is very different than the one sitting behind a desk or in a meeting saying what might or should happen, not actually in the environment dealing with what is actually happening. I'm not saying its a bad thing. I personally study a PhD in sport, I read many journals that prove that even the academical world does not understand how the practical world works, which is ironic considering they rely on it.

The FFT doesn't work, or their players would stay in France and/or speak positively about it, its the same situation as the LTA, guys in hats in offices who pat themselves on the back for assuming they're doing great work when everyone thinks and sees differently. When the tenure ends for the current crop of clowns in charge the next will enter and do things even worse and make the previous ones look "less bad".

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Junior, I wasn't always behind a desk, I'm also a player, umpire, parent of an ex-top junior, partner to coach etc etc etc

But even behind a desk is part of the real world. It's all part of the real world. Just different parts.

But, as said, this is not a game of CVs here.

Also, nothing to do with tennis, I don't agree with the premise that you can't have a valid opinion about something unless you've personally experienced it the actual doing of it. I find it a 'cheap' riposte.

Many of use have perfectly valid opinions of the Prime Minister without ever having been Prime Minister. Just for instance