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Post Info TOPIC: Leeds United


All-time great

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RE: Leeds United


Coup Droit wrote:

Bob, thanks for posting it - interesting read, even if only skimming it.

And, yes, the takeaway seems pretty clear that (1) he said it, that (2) he knew what it meant (after all, the basis of the word is clear from Latin roots, as also transposed into Spanish, and he admits himself - at footnote 9. on page 16 - that in Spanish it is 'not a good word' and can be interpreted as insulting) and that (3) he also knew that it was offensive in English or else he wouldn't have put the f-word in front of it, and used it as an insult.

It's a shame, in my opinion, that he didn't use the 'red mist' argument himself and simply profusely, hugely and humbly apologise. Not that it would have made it right but claiming he didn't even know the word existed is just plain ridiculous and even more insulting.

It's a delicate area but there are many very insulting words that one can sort of get away with and others one can't. I know this sets myself up, but I would give a certain, limited leeway to youngsters/foreigners, if it's the first time, and it is based on a word. I see way too much actual racism in my line of work, by very polite well-spoken people. Racism that really ruins people's lives. It turns my stomach to acid. And nothing is done about that. It doesn't make this guy's offense any less but I just wish he'd simply asked forgiveness.


Yes, I agree, 'look I know it was bloody stupid, but I was mad at the time, and I apologise for it now'... It would have got everything done and dusted too last year.

As for the actual much more dangerous forms of racism... indeed. But we could do with less of it becoming commonplace in football crowds these days too, and hence the severe penalty here.



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Coup Droit wrote:

Bob, thanks for posting it - interesting read, even if only skimming it.

And, yes, the takeaway seems pretty clear that (1) he said it, that (2) he knew what it meant (after all, the basis of the word is clear from Latin roots, as also transposed into Spanish, and he admits himself - at footnote 9. on page 16 - that in Spanish it is 'not a good word' and can be interpreted as insulting) and that (3) he also knew that it was offensive in English or else he wouldn't have put the f-word in front of it, and used it as an insult.

It's a shame, in my opinion, that he didn't use the 'red mist' argument himself and simply profusely, hugely and humbly apologise. Not that it would have made it right but claiming he didn't even know the word existed is just plain ridiculous and even more insulting.

It's a delicate area but there are many very insulting words that one can sort of get away with and others one can't. I know this sets myself up, but I would give a certain, limited leeway to youngsters/foreigners, if it's the first time, and it is based on a word. I see way too much actual racism in my line of work, by very polite well-spoken people. Racism that really ruins people's lives. It turns my stomach to acid. And nothing is done about that. It doesn't make this guy's offense any less but I just wish he'd simply asked forgiveness.


CD.  I am 100% with you on this one.  I would have had so much more respect for him (and the club) if he had just apologised and admitted that he had used the word in the heat of the moment. I think if he then gone on to say that whilst he knew the word was an insult, because of his English language limitations, he was unaware of the severity of the words interpretation, people would have understood that, even though it would still not excuse the use of it.

To have used this defense would have (a) meant only a 6 match ban (b) allowed him to retain some credibility and (c) would perhaps have resulted in more people forgiving him his "mistake" over the longer term.

In this regard, I also think he was very badly advised by the club and those advisers around him also come out of this with a tarnished reputation. It is a very bad day for the club in general and they have some serious damage control to do, which needs to take the form of contrition and education.

As I have stated before, I think Casilla should be quietly moved on at the end of the season under the guise of "he wants to return home to Spain", or something similar.  Whilst he is still at Leeds, this incident will hang around both his neck and that of the club.  One only has to look at how long the press kept reminding us of the reasons behind Evo's enforced lay-off.

As the club (hopefully) starts a new chapter in its history in the Premier League next season (not guaranteed - I know), the last thing anyone wants is to start off with the first name being read out from the team sheet on the opening day of the season and being instantly reminded by the commentator that this is the player who is returning from a ban for the racial abuse of a fellow professional. Much cleaner for all concerned if he has left and started a new chapter of his own.

My final thought on this matter is my complete disgust for those "anonymous keyboard warriors" who have taken it upon themselves to blame and throw further abuse at the Charlton AFC players for raising this issue in the first place.  They are only a very small minority, but there are some truly sick minded individuals out there and I am ashamed that some of them call themselves fans of LUFC.

 

 



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Grand Slam Champion

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Bob in Spain wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:

Bob, thanks for posting it - interesting read, even if only skimming it.

And, yes, the takeaway seems pretty clear that (1) he said it, that (2) he knew what it meant (after all, the basis of the word is clear from Latin roots, as also transposed into Spanish, and he admits himself - at footnote 9. on page 16 - that in Spanish it is 'not a good word' and can be interpreted as insulting) and that (3) he also knew that it was offensive in English or else he wouldn't have put the f-word in front of it, and used it as an insult.

It's a shame, in my opinion, that he didn't use the 'red mist' argument himself and simply profusely, hugely and humbly apologise. Not that it would have made it right but claiming he didn't even know the word existed is just plain ridiculous and even more insulting.

It's a delicate area but there are many very insulting words that one can sort of get away with and others one can't. I know this sets myself up, but I would give a certain, limited leeway to youngsters/foreigners, if it's the first time, and it is based on a word. I see way too much actual racism in my line of work, by very polite well-spoken people. Racism that really ruins people's lives. It turns my stomach to acid. And nothing is done about that. It doesn't make this guy's offense any less but I just wish he'd simply asked forgiveness.


CD.  I am 100% with you on this one.  I would have had so much more respect for him (and the club) if he had just apologised and admitted that he had used the word in the heat of the moment. I think if he then gone on to say that whilst he knew the word was an insult, because of his English language limitations, he was unaware of the severity of the words interpretation, people would have understood that, even though it would still not excuse the use of it.

To have used this defense would have (a) meant only a 6 match ban (b) allowed him to retain some credibility and (c) would perhaps have resulted in more people forgiving him his "mistake" over the longer term.

In this regard, I also think he was very badly advised by the club and those advisers around him also come out of this with a tarnished reputation. It is a very bad day for the club in general and they have some serious damage control to do, which needs to take the form of contrition and education.

As I have stated before, I think Casilla should be quietly moved on at the end of the season under the guise of "he wants to return home to Spain", or something similar.  Whilst he is still at Leeds, this incident will hang around both his neck and that of the club.  One only has to look at how long the press kept reminding us of the reasons behind Evo's enforced lay-off.

As the club (hopefully) starts a new chapter in its history in the Premier League next season (not guaranteed - I know), the last thing anyone wants is to start off with the first name being read out from the team sheet on the opening day of the season and being instantly reminded by the commentator that this is the player who is returning from a ban for the racial abuse of a fellow professional. Much cleaner for all concerned if he has left and started a new chapter of his own.

My final thought on this matter is my complete disgust for those "anonymous keyboard warriors" who have taken it upon themselves to blame and throw further abuse at the Charlton AFC players for raising this issue in the first place.  They are only a very small minority, but there are some truly sick minded individuals out there and I am ashamed that some of them call themselves fans of LUFC.

 

 


 Why move him on quietly,  ? Why not sack him ?



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Tennis legend

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JonH comes home wrote:
Bob in Spain wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:

Bob, thanks for posting it - interesting read, even if only skimming it.

And, yes, the takeaway seems pretty clear that (1) he said it, that (2) he knew what it meant (after all, the basis of the word is clear from Latin roots, as also transposed into Spanish, and he admits himself - at footnote 9. on page 16 - that in Spanish it is 'not a good word' and can be interpreted as insulting) and that (3) he also knew that it was offensive in English or else he wouldn't have put the f-word in front of it, and used it as an insult.

It's a shame, in my opinion, that he didn't use the 'red mist' argument himself and simply profusely, hugely and humbly apologise. Not that it would have made it right but claiming he didn't even know the word existed is just plain ridiculous and even more insulting.

It's a delicate area but there are many very insulting words that one can sort of get away with and others one can't. I know this sets myself up, but I would give a certain, limited leeway to youngsters/foreigners, if it's the first time, and it is based on a word. I see way too much actual racism in my line of work, by very polite well-spoken people. Racism that really ruins people's lives. It turns my stomach to acid. And nothing is done about that. It doesn't make this guy's offense any less but I just wish he'd simply asked forgiveness.


CD.  I am 100% with you on this one.  I would have had so much more respect for him (and the club) if he had just apologised and admitted that he had used the word in the heat of the moment. I think if he then gone on to say that whilst he knew the word was an insult, because of his English language limitations, he was unaware of the severity of the words interpretation, people would have understood that, even though it would still not excuse the use of it.

To have used this defense would have (a) meant only a 6 match ban (b) allowed him to retain some credibility and (c) would perhaps have resulted in more people forgiving him his "mistake" over the longer term.

In this regard, I also think he was very badly advised by the club and those advisers around him also come out of this with a tarnished reputation. It is a very bad day for the club in general and they have some serious damage control to do, which needs to take the form of contrition and education.

As I have stated before, I think Casilla should be quietly moved on at the end of the season under the guise of "he wants to return home to Spain", or something similar.  Whilst he is still at Leeds, this incident will hang around both his neck and that of the club.  One only has to look at how long the press kept reminding us of the reasons behind Evo's enforced lay-off.

As the club (hopefully) starts a new chapter in its history in the Premier League next season (not guaranteed - I know), the last thing anyone wants is to start off with the first name being read out from the team sheet on the opening day of the season and being instantly reminded by the commentator that this is the player who is returning from a ban for the racial abuse of a fellow professional. Much cleaner for all concerned if he has left and started a new chapter of his own.

My final thought on this matter is my complete disgust for those "anonymous keyboard warriors" who have taken it upon themselves to blame and throw further abuse at the Charlton AFC players for raising this issue in the first place.  They are only a very small minority, but there are some truly sick minded individuals out there and I am ashamed that some of them call themselves fans of LUFC.

 

 


 Why move him on quietly,  ? Why not sack him ?


I think that would probably lead to a long legal case over unfair dismissal.  It depends on the terms of his contract. 



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Grand Slam Champion

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Bob in Spain wrote:
JonH comes home wrote:
Bob in Spain wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:

Bob, thanks for posting it - interesting read, even if only skimming it.

And, yes, the takeaway seems pretty clear that (1) he said it, that (2) he knew what it meant (after all, the basis of the word is clear from Latin roots, as also transposed into Spanish, and he admits himself - at footnote 9. on page 16 - that in Spanish it is 'not a good word' and can be interpreted as insulting) and that (3) he also knew that it was offensive in English or else he wouldn't have put the f-word in front of it, and used it as an insult.

It's a shame, in my opinion, that he didn't use the 'red mist' argument himself and simply profusely, hugely and humbly apologise. Not that it would have made it right but claiming he didn't even know the word existed is just plain ridiculous and even more insulting.

It's a delicate area but there are many very insulting words that one can sort of get away with and others one can't. I know this sets myself up, but I would give a certain, limited leeway to youngsters/foreigners, if it's the first time, and it is based on a word. I see way too much actual racism in my line of work, by very polite well-spoken people. Racism that really ruins people's lives. It turns my stomach to acid. And nothing is done about that. It doesn't make this guy's offense any less but I just wish he'd simply asked forgiveness.


CD.  I am 100% with you on this one.  I would have had so much more respect for him (and the club) if he had just apologised and admitted that he had used the word in the heat of the moment. I think if he then gone on to say that whilst he knew the word was an insult, because of his English language limitations, he was unaware of the severity of the words interpretation, people would have understood that, even though it would still not excuse the use of it.

To have used this defense would have (a) meant only a 6 match ban (b) allowed him to retain some credibility and (c) would perhaps have resulted in more people forgiving him his "mistake" over the longer term.

In this regard, I also think he was very badly advised by the club and those advisers around him also come out of this with a tarnished reputation. It is a very bad day for the club in general and they have some serious damage control to do, which needs to take the form of contrition and education.

As I have stated before, I think Casilla should be quietly moved on at the end of the season under the guise of "he wants to return home to Spain", or something similar.  Whilst he is still at Leeds, this incident will hang around both his neck and that of the club.  One only has to look at how long the press kept reminding us of the reasons behind Evo's enforced lay-off.

As the club (hopefully) starts a new chapter in its history in the Premier League next season (not guaranteed - I know), the last thing anyone wants is to start off with the first name being read out from the team sheet on the opening day of the season and being instantly reminded by the commentator that this is the player who is returning from a ban for the racial abuse of a fellow professional. Much cleaner for all concerned if he has left and started a new chapter of his own.

My final thought on this matter is my complete disgust for those "anonymous keyboard warriors" who have taken it upon themselves to blame and throw further abuse at the Charlton AFC players for raising this issue in the first place.  They are only a very small minority, but there are some truly sick minded individuals out there and I am ashamed that some of them call themselves fans of LUFC.

 

 


 Why move him on quietly,  ? Why not sack him ?


I think that would probably lead to a long legal case over unfair dismissal.  It depends on the terms of his contract. 


 Surely gross misconduct?



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JonH comes home wrote:
 Surely gross misconduct?

As I said, I guess it depends how his contract is worded.  Gross misconduct may be defined as a criminal conviction.

I also think that financial matters will come into the decision making - not saying they necessarily should, just that they will.  If Leeds sack him they get nothing.  I think they will already be looking to line up a buyer for him as soon as the season ends to recoup some of their outlay.

Having said that, Liverpool didn't sack/sell Suarez and Chelsea didn't sack/sell Terry.  Maybe Leeds will follow suit. I hope they don't.



-- Edited by Bob in Spain on Wednesday 4th of March 2020 09:31:19 PM

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Changing the tone a bit and getting back to football, I don't know how accurate these stats are from an account called LUFCDATA, but

Leeds in the Championship in 2019/20:

Possession: 65% (1st)
Wins: 20 (1st)
Shots: 591 (1st)
On-Target: 191 (1st)
Chances: 455 (1st)
Big Chances: 96 (1st)
xG: 66.6 (1st)
xGA: 28.9 (1st)
Clean Sheets: 16 (1st)
Possession Won In Final Third: 180 (1st)
Ball Recoveries: 2059 (1st)
Crosses: 836 (1st)
Hit Woodwork: 22 (1st)
Shots On-Target Faced: 101 (1st)
Challenge Intensity: 9 (1st)
Touches In Box: 958 (1st)
Progressive Runs: 634 (1st)
Progressive Passes: 3158 (1st)
Smart Passes: 284 (1st)
Through Passes: 310 (1st)
Goals Conceded: 30 (1st)
Open Play Goals Conceded: 15 (1st)
Shots Faced: 330 (2nd)
Deep Completions: 494 (1st)
Corners Won: 284 (1st)
Successful Passes: 14,601 (2nd)
Pass Accuracy: 80.3% (2nd)
Defensive Duels: 2801 (2nd)

Decent stats, although if we don't get promoted, it's all for nothing.

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Lol, goals conceded - 1st, shots faced 1st, hit woodwork 1st. That's a tale in itself !

(Yes, a lot of the others ARE good).

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the addict wrote:

Lol, goals conceded - 1st, shots faced 1st, hit woodwork 1st. That's a tale in itself !

(Yes, a lot of the others ARE good).


 Deleted, wrote gobbledegook 



-- Edited by JonH comes home on Thursday 5th of March 2020 08:44:08 AM

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the addict wrote:

Lol, goals conceded - 1st, shots faced 1st, hit woodwork 1st. That's a tale in itself !

(Yes, a lot of the others ARE good).


Goals conceded - 1st does mean "fewest" goals conceded.  Not most smile

Same with Shots Faced.



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Leko released a statement. This paragraph is damning. What are these organisations for? Why does gordon taylor get paid 2 million a year? Why on earth would kick it out work with him ?

would urge the games governing bodies to look into their own processes when such incidents are reported. It was 22 weeks between the incident and the hearing during which I had minimal contact from the PFA, of which I am a member, and no contact in the way of support from leading anti-racism bodies such as Kick It Out and Show Racism The Red Card. Some support or guidance would have been very welcome.

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JonH comes home wrote:

Leko released a statement. This paragraph is damning. What are these organisations for? Why does gordon taylor get paid 2 million a year? Why on earth would kick it out work with him ?

would urge the games governing bodies to look into their own processes when such incidents are reported. It was 22 weeks between the incident and the hearing during which I had minimal contact from the PFA, of which I am a member, and no contact in the way of support from leading anti-racism bodies such as Kick It Out and Show Racism The Red Card. Some support or guidance would have been very welcome.


Should be added here that Kick it Out has refuted this claim today and said they did make contact with Charlton AFC in the days immediately after the incident.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/51750239

 



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Dare I begin to believe ?

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Bob in Spain wrote:

Dare I begin to believe ?


 Go on   



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GBJ


Club Coach

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I posted this on Feb 15th after the first win of Leeds current run: "Hoping todays result is a turning point for Leeds United after their recent slump and that they will be back in the Premiership at last when we move back to the UK later this year!! They have dominated at pretty much all their games this season (even against Arsenal in the FA cup) but I dont remember the last time they scored early and kept the lead. (Ive been following most weeks on these BBC live updates)." I am feeling pretty good about that turning point I was hoping for is starting to work out now - 7 points clear of 3rd place, back on top of the table, 5 wins in a row and 9 goals without reply. Hoping they can keep plenty of this momentum going and maybe even secure promotion comfortably ....but that is just me being an optimist.

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